Non Alsatian/GSD owners, your opinions appreciated please Discussions

I would believe Pam over you, I respect her knowledge and her trustworthiness. Over a long period of time I have learned a lot from her. All I have learned from you is that you ask everyone else to be polite whilst you disrespect everyone who doesn't agree with your own opinion.

You have also never told me what experience you have with GSDs therefore I form my opinion of you on the basis that you have none. You leave me no choice.

Oh, and being able to multiquote does not give you greater knowledge than everyone else

I don't want to get involved in any kind of slanging match but that reply doesn't really answer the question. Lots of breed standards call for certain traits that are either cosmetic or IMO not in the interests of the health of the dog.

I picked dog A on looks alone - I would be interested to know what people feel the benefits of the different conformation of dog B are. Actual facts that show it is beneficial to the dog i.e if the hipscores are better, why is this? There must be a medical reason?

(I also don't care if he's Zamp or not - that really isn't the issue as the picture is just being used as an example of a type).

In all the time I have been on this forum, Patch has struck me as one of the most honest and up front people I have come across. To question her integrity is really not on, as she has posted a pic which is widely available on t'internet.
I know Patch is very capable of defending herself but I just wanted to voice my disproval at you post and think that taking this to a personal level is out of order:?

I have answered this post in previous threads when it as been brought up;
There is no correlation between length and steepness of croup to HD the problem is that HD as familial links and dogs/bitchs consistenly bred from well below mean BMS (not just below) over several generations will produce lower scores. The English lines like others have been heavily linebred (some inbred) on dogs that produce certain genetic conditions and certain atributes.
ie Avon Prince gave long dogs with steep upper arms, some short forelegs, extreme hind angulation with loose hocks, short flat croups, colour paling, long coats, whites and cryptorchids.
another example Premonition gave UAP, although hips were tollerable, his son Oran who had 10 lines going back to Avon Prince was one of the poorest hip sires identified in the UK.
So no it isnt medical it is genetics.

Because previously she had said that her bitches sire was born in 2004 and had a hip score of 2 from a grsire with a hip score of 2 and she told me to put my money where my mouth is the point I was proving was There were no males born in 2004 that have been hip scored with a total hip score of 2.
If people wish to see the rest I am quite happy to post the hip scores of All GSDs born in the year 2004.
If people are economical with the truth why should I believe anything they say without evidence?

You don`t believe things even when the evidence is in front of your eyes, like photo`s posted exactly as they are from the site they originated from.
Still waiting for the apology from you for that...

You have tried to ruin this thread but I hope everyone else who made it a polite and interesting thread will continue to discuss regardless of your behaviour.

If you are saying it is the site owner that has interfered with the pictures then it proves it is not a credible source of information. In which case I will apologise to you on that point only, but I believe you also need to appologise to JodeeUK, Warro and everyone else you are rude to on this and past GSD threads.

Dog B for me, think he is stunning, dont like the colour or coat length for starters on the other one, untypical to me.

They have simply flipped it, I presume for continuity as all the other photos have Zamp facing the same direction, it`s hardly an earth shattering issue ;-)

That apology is accepted, it will do until you apologise for the other slur, [ the evidence for which is on the same site and goodness knows how many others with the same photos of the same dog - Zamp...]

Anyhoo, you have tried diverting this thread more than enough so if you can get back to the topic please, once again the subject is outlined in post one of the thread.

The colour and coat length are untypical yes, that`s why I mentioned them as something to disregard for the topic at hand cos it`s about body shape not coat

So ....

Is there anyone on here who can tell me why the showline gsd has been purposely bred to have a curved top line and over angulation of the hind legs? Just to add... these features are largely hated by the working gsd fraternity whose dogs are often physically tested and on a very regular basis (real time), often regarded as not fit for function (working dog). Why are showlines bred like this??

This is a genuine question - to date, I still can't get my head round it. Would appreciate a straightforward answer and not a patronising opinion if there is anyone on here who can answer that. I can accept breeding for the pet market where temp and drive levels differ for eg. a stable and easier dog to live with as a companion, as opposed to the higher drive of the working line, but to state they are bred striving to this construction to enhance health and avoid hd is a lot of tosh, but that is only my opinion.

Then my decision still stands, the first dog is not good at all, think its a very poor specimen. The 2nd dog is superb IMO, Id give him house room any day, whether its Zamp or not!!

Patch the other photo you posted without the Urma copyright is not posted anywhere else online or in print format.
You say its not earth shattering issue well it is as its been used with permission of Urban or Anders Petterson and is a breach of copywright and as stated proves that source is not reliable.
re the original thread, I dislike the other dog as stated previously it is not a good specimen of the breed regardless of colour or coat, and is obviously bred for the pet market regardless of the breed standard or even working ability.

Who exactly are the pet market? When dogs are bred for show - generally how many from an average litter make show quality and where do the remaining dogs go - the pet market? Wildmoor, with your extensive research on these matters, can you roughly give a percentage ratio? From my very limited research, those people who are not involved in showing, prefer the type that you refer to as dogs bred specifically for the pet market. If that were true on that basis, would it not be fair to say that the showline are specifically produced for the fancy of the show market and not the general population?

Thanks

Honest and upfront does not mean she knows anything about German Shepherds!

I am voicing my PERSONAL opinion of Patches PERSONAL opinion. Whether you disapprove or not means nothing to me. So disapprove away. Or not.

no problem

I'm with you Dawn.The first dog is IMO a poor example.He has a poor head and ear set giving a neither which is neither feminine or masculine.His front angulation is poor as is his coat and colour.He may look 'pretty' but he is not a good example.
The second dog is stunning.Masculine with correct height to length ration.He is a picture of strength and alertness.

Yes I'm a B too, first dog is horrid very unbalanced, long in back and loin with no heart room, second if you stand it up is a cracker.

Voted dog(B) as I assume you wish to know which we prefer.

Dog A if a true GSD looks to be a very poor example.. I would go as far as to say, a Xbreed.

Dog B, is a fabulous looking dog... much prefer a GSD that resembles what it is.

Dawn.......agree with all you say.

I would hazard a guess at a 'pet' bred dog,bred specifically for coat type and colour