German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

Absolutely. No wonder there are problems in the breed if the breeders can't see the wood for the trees. :-(

I was thinking about this when I was out walking my lot, and wondering why it is that not only is there a working/show split in GSDs (as in many breeds as we know) but then there is also a split within the show types.

Is this the case in any other breed?

Those on both sides - can you ever see a "common" type (perhaps a middle of the road) becoming popular, and therefore negating the need for two completely different types or will the two sides just grow farther and farther apart?

It is a sad state of affairs.

My understanding is that the breed are all indeed German Shepherd Dogs. However, the breeders who breed for the 1970/80s type which was more commonly known as the Alsatian back then, would like to call this type an Alsatian to differentiate it from the West German showline type.

I wonder whether the GSD should be split into various types, like the BSD. They would all come under the umbrella of German Shepherd Dog but then the WG show type could have their own name, the old English show type have their Alsatian name etc.

It still seems like madness but I can't see the two sides ever coming together, as the different type of dogs are so different.

Really though, the only issue comes from showing of these types - as exhibitors will only show under a judge that favours their type. It doesn't affect the regular GSD owning public.

No, I think that Malcolm Willis is an idiot. But then it was Malcolm Willis who insisted that only German SV dogs were 'correct'. (Until he had a 'conversation' with Roy Brandon, who shot him down on every point). And you don't have to be medically qualified to be quoted about epilepsy. Simply collect the facts and you are there. And that Willis was proved wrong once still makes him much better qualified than you as an expert on breed genetics.

I also have a collection of books by so called 'experts' that insist that HD isn't genetic at all.

I'm still waiting for the names of the current breeders of epileptic dogs.... (but I guess I'll have a VERY long wait )

Really? Then provide the proof. Give us an example of a dog from the past 5 years.

By personal observation - on a number of occasions.

Perhaps upbringing? Environment? There are many more causes of aggression than inheritance. However, it is also true that breeding from dogs with aggression is more likely to produce a dog with aggression.

Hmm. If you mean a Revondo dog owned by Mr Lowe, late 70's -early 80s, then I believe it's the case that the Revondo kennels were mainly German bred. In particular, he used a German stud from the police, Lex of Glanford.

What you say is an excellent summary - and is almost 100% correct. The only issue I'd take with it is the last statement "It doesn't affect the regular GSD owning public". Because, by and large, it is quite obvious to the public that there are changes in the breed.

On numerous occasions I'll be stopped by someone in the street when walking one of my dogs to be asked where it came from as the person thought that 'proper' GSDs didn't exist any more. I've even had someone stop a car and press his business card on me so that I could contact him when we had a litter because he so wanted a GSD that looked like, in his words, "a real GSD".

And at every show I've attended with my dogs I've had breeders of other breeds come up and say how nice it is to see a dog with a straight back without wobbly hocks. That's every show!

It's one of the reasons I believe there should be a split in the breed. The SV people can carry on with their roach backs - and still call them GSDs - and those of us breeding traditional GSDs will be quite happy to rename ours as either 'Alsatians' (or something similar). It would be very interesting to see how the public would react if faced with a clear choice.

You make some good points.

As I requested earlier, could we see a photo or two of your "type" of dog?

I have what is termed an English obedience line bitch, a WG show line, and a mainly DDR bred work line dog. I also get people stopping me and asking me about my dark sable WL dog and many people do comment immediately about his "straight back". There could well be a market for the Alsatian type of dog. Personally I have not seen an Alsatian type for many years, but would like to see one for comparisons of the dogs I remember from the 1980s.

Btw, as an Alsatianist, do you remember the Pat Jones, Wellknowe dogs?

I don't know her - but enquiries amongst friends suggest that she also had an affix 'Cartmel' (or something like that) and she used to show Portuguese Water Dogs and Bearded Collies. Nobody can remember her showing Alsatians.

From what I can see as well as people wanting to distance themselves from what they believe are incorrect dogs
Lots of the public still call them Alsatians because thats what we used to call them
When I was a kid thats what they were called
If I didnt come on here I wouldnt know that the name had been deopped
and at the end of the day does it make any difference to the dogs? A names a name, just because the breed club or KC or whoever decided they wanted to change the name again it really dosent make a blind bit of difference to most of the population who want a decent pet dog and dont care in the slightest about showing or working their dogs

Same here

I`m not so sure, what with all the bickering goings on between what's "correct" and "not".

Well yes I know what you mean after following this thread and others like them
But
That is not what I see in the real world, well around here anyways - over time it might filter down but in general the GSD's round here still look pretty much like they did in the 70's

Avon Prince was Not epileptic. I knew & handled him as he came to the same BAGSD training class as we did back in the 50's. He had many faults, colour paling being one & did most of his winning because of the way he showed off in the ring & demanded the judges attention but HEwas not epileptic. True he has been known to sire some lines with epileptic dogs in them but with the amount he was used & doubled up on thats no surprise .
Back in Quadrilles time it was bot known that epilepsy was an inherited problem so many people used him for the qualities they admired in him not realising the problems they were storing up for future generations. I hope the day will come when there will be a test to show whether a dog with no signs of epelepsy is a carrier but at present we can only prove that a dog is epeleptic thenselves. There are three GSDs I have known in the past 12 years with epilepsy, 2 of them whites, but as they were not KC registered & only a few of the dogs on the pedigree were I could not say where the problem came from,

Her affix for the Alsatians was Hebson I think. Yes she was more well known for her Beardies and PWDs but did also show Alsatians, for a while at least.

So, he wasn't epileptic - but WAS an epilepsy carrier? Therefore, he was just as 'dangerous' as Quadrille, if not more so, because many more progeny can be traced back to him in the long run.

It really is time that the German SV people faced facts - the epilepsy isn't an Alsatian trait. It originally came from German stock. And, if there are any epileptic GSDs today it's simply silly to say that they are Alsatian.

The last known epileptic GSD I know of was imported from one of the top lines in Germany in 2007 (might have been 2009). It was reported to BAGSD although I don't know the identity of the dog because the owner wanted to keep it quiet.

I think Hebson was Shetland sheepdogs. There were certainly Shetlands with that affix around 2005 but not, AFAIK, GSDs.

Sorry but it was known whilst Quadrille was alive that he produced epileptic offspring from different bitches. Unfortunately my mother was given a bitch puppy out of a Hendrawens Syrious Norge daughter. True to type this bitch was a bag of nerves(as was her mother) & came fwom a litter with no less than 3 fitting puppies in it. I tried to persuade my mother not to breed to her from her to no avail. I did however manage to steer her away from using her grandfather on her & instead she was bred to a half german dog Timbervale Secret Alien(by Condor v Schiefen Giebeln ex a Gorsefield bitch)who had an excellent temperament & character & produced the same & never produced any fitting offspring. His owner was a very upfront lady & told my mother to ensure that her bitch had no effect on her puppies temperaments the puppies should be weaned asap. My mother's bitches litter had in fact to be weaned early because she developed a Sialocele whilst in whelp & had to be operated on at Edinburgh vet school when her puppies were 4 weeks old. The litter was reared by my German bitch resulting in a litter with excellent temperaments.

I'm not saying it was not known that he had, to certain bitches, had epileptic dogs. I know he did, I'm saying the genetics was not really understood about passing on these things. My memory is shaky on names from then but I know one of May Tidbolds Eveley dogs think it was eclipse but not sure was a fitter & a friend of mine went to use him at stud & waited for him to recover from a fit before he mated her bitch. She saw nothing wrong in this, as to her, dogs with epilepsy were just one of those things that occured now & then in litters like long coats, whites or rear dew claws. It was not understood by most people that some modes of fitting were inheritted while others were caused by other outside influences such as the use of lead paint in kennels.
I consider myself very fortunate that in over 50 years of breeding I have never had a fitting puppy in any of my litters though my early lines doubled & more on Avon Prince & when I lost my entire line through torsion in both my animals I then had a bitch to show & breed from who was double Sparticist. Admitedly because of the amount of inbreeding in her pedigree I used a German import to get as complete an outcross as I could Because epilepsy is not a straightforward clear, carrier or fitter but a much more complicated mode of inheritance still all we can do is never double up on lines known to have problems untill such time as a test is found which can tell us which animals are safe to breed from.

I have only skimmed what as been posted since I was last on- a few points have you actualy assessed all the data on hip scores in this country? I think you will find over the last few years those that breed for colour & coat are in the majority of high hip scores, not the WGSL
Re Epilepsy again this is in all lines including working lines, although again the majority of producers are from those that breed for coat & colour not working or showing of which ever type and this includes upto this year, Ingo was also used exstensively in Czech and is behind several workinglines - some of which are currently producing epileptics
re temperment problems the majority are from poorly bred dogs from BYBs & unregistered dogs, some are from English/American Alsatian types, some are from German/English crosses and one particular line of German dogs - nobody on here is going to agree on type so no point arguing!

I've checked all the pedigrees of Brittas dogs I have & I cannot find any Eclipse bearing the Brittas name either as a suffix nor an affix. I know May Tidbold had an Eclipse who was a fitter(& a Champion). Can you give me anymore information like his full pedigree name ?

Hebson was her Alsatian affix & she bred to the UK type

Sorry Joedee I must have been having a senior moment could have sworn I put May Tidbold have tried to correct first post. Will have to ask for help to do so.
Thanks to help from those in know statement is now corrected