German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

As a parallel - it's like saying I'm immunised against diphtheria when the country is in the grip of a smallpox epidemic. Health testing is fine - I do it to dogs I'd use for breeding - but the current health tests don't address the problem that the KC now ask vets to check for - topline and hindquarter problems. And it's a sad fact that the breed clubs that represent the Germanic type of dog are still fighting this.

As a matter of fact the dog was also called the 'Chien d'Alsace' in France. Deutscher Schäferhund is simply 'German Shepherd Dog' in German. Personally, I'd be quite happy to stay with the GSD name - as long as it was applied to the type of dog it was always supposed to be and not the mutants that are bred to match the current SV dogs in Germany.

Depends - there are 2 choices, phenotype and genotype. When the Akitas split (because the Japanese KC and then the FCI wanted them to) the rest of the world went one way (phenotype) and the UK Kennel Club went the other (genotype). Very few litters produce dogs that fit the 'other' type. That's mainly because there are very few breeders who will used a sire from the other type. I can only think of one such attempt in the past few years.

For a GSD split in the UK I would favour phenotype e.g. if it looks like an Alsatian it's an Alsatian. I'd re-label the Alsatian types as either 'Alsatian' or 'German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian)' and leave the Martin types as 'German Shepherd Dog.' A breeder could choose one or the other to start with - but once registered the dog would stay in the appropriate 'camp'. It would basically self-regulate because show judges would only promote those dogs that met the standard for the particular breed and any genetic throwbacks (which would occur from time to time) simply wouldn't be used for breeding within the breed. It might mean that the GSD standard would be re-written to the FCI standard (which, strangely, says "The back, including the loins, is straight") or something which allows for hinge-backs.

Sorry, but all the evidence says that's an argument that simply doesn't hold. The GSD, after WWII, almost ceased to exist in West Germany. The best specimens were exported to other countries and the breed almost had to start again. As a result there was a certain amount of outcrossing, so rather than being the 'right' dog they more or less exemplify the 'wrong' dog. The vast majority of GSDs are in other countries and, as a result, they tend to be much closer to the correct shape of dog.

Further, it is a demonstrable fact that in the 1970s, 80s and 90s the SV (the GSD breed club in Germany) was under the control of 2 brothers (the Martins). Between them they changed the shape of the GSD - funnily enough by awarding each other the annual top 'Sieger' award several times. Their argument was that by changing the shape they were putting more 'drive' into the rear end of the dog. That, in itself, is stupid. The GSD was always supposed to be a trotting dog and only needed bursts of running. (Again the FCI standard says "The German Shepherd Dog is a trotter"). It didn't need more 'drive' and, as it happens, the change of shape hasn't provided any. What is has done is produce incredibly poor hocks - so much so that many of the Martin type dogs can hardly walk on their paws alone.

[The FCI standard was copied almost exactly from the German SV standard. It is, therefore, painfully obvious that those now running the SV are not adhering to their own standard. And the reason behind that is that those at the top, running multiple kennels, are simply making huge sums of money for themselves].

Nor did I claim they were being used as originally intended. They are part of a number of dogs - mainly border collies - that are used, as I understand it, mainly to drive sheep. I believe, but don't know for certain, that the GSDs tend to be used in transferring sheep from place to place.

The question of the ability to control or 'attack' may be why he uses Alsatians and not Germanic dogs - his dogs aren't trained (as most German dogs are) in the Schutzhund methods but are quite able to obey commands enabling them to move sheep. I could well understand that a Germanic dog wouldn't be able to control itself because nearly all such dogs I've seen have been aggressive.

Well the majority of aggressive dogs I see are the English type. If they are all so aggressive I wonder how one was handled & gaited off lead by a child of 8 or 9 at last years British sieger. I accept you will never accept the correct type though so I'm goingto give up arguing with you.

Feelings are obviously running high on this subject. I don't know the truth of the matter but if it is right that politics and money play a part I wouldn't be surprised.

I can only speak from my experience of owning a WG showline gsd. She is not exaggerated and her movement when she trots is beautiful and flowing. Her favourite activity is chasing other dogs and she has no problems running. And her temperament is wonderful. Maybe her problem is that she is too good natured for a gsd. She would never be any good at schutzhund ;-)

GSDs have never been a "french"breed they have their own breeds of sheep working dogs including the Briard

Gwen Barrington used german bred dogs on her estate in Ireland(you will have of course heard of her) to work her sheep & cattle,she never had the popular UK show dogs doing this as they had neither the temperament nor character & this was back in the 1940s/1950s of course.

All the German GSDs you have met have been aggressive-does that include Elmo ????? As for most GSDs being trained for VPG that certainly is NOT the case in the UK

Can you supply this hill farmer/shepherd's details as I would love to compare experiences in using GSDs(or in his case Alsatians)on sheep

I guess you have never seen a GSD being training to work sheep in Germany so have a look at this video

Dolce what about the fact that most English dogs are twice the weight they were in the late 20s - average weight of a UK male at a 1926 breed survey was 26kg

Disorders associated with conformation = These disorders are directly related to the conformation or standards for the breed. Although these conditions have in many cases become so common that they are accepted as normal for the breed, they can still cause serious physical problems and discomfort for the dog. One component of responsible breeding is to breed away from the extremes of conformation that cause these physical problems.

According to the CIDD there are no such disorders in the German Shepherd Dog

thanks wildmoor, how do the German dogs compare weight wise? what is the breed standard today?

I've got a feeling that the general population would also weigh more than their twenties relatives.

could better food contribute to higher weights. dry foods are a relatively New invention I think, coming out of a war I don't see the dogs getting the best food going.

are the gene pools for both types big enough to support a spilt ?


I do think that the way the GSD is being shown has contributed to the changes - all other breeds are assessed by moving them in a triangle and then straight up and down with equal importance placed on side, front and rear movement - the GSD is gaited extensively around ( many more times that any other breed )with an over emphasis on it's side profile and at a speed which no GSD would have been able to maintain when doing the work it was originally designed for - this has in my opinion, led to over angulation in the rear in the search for more 'drive' and breeding for an unbroken topline from head to tail which looks good in profile at speed but at the cost of overall balance.

If the GSD was shown in the same way as the BSD would it have developed the exaggerations we see today ?

I'm a newby to Dogsey but have owned GSD's since the late 1960s and used to regularly attend GSD shows in the 1970s. Reading these posts has prompted me to look though my old books and i came across this from Madeleine Pickup, at that time one of the very few British judges to be recognised by the SV, dateline 1973.

"In countries outside the governing influence of the SV, there has been a definite tendency over the past 2 decades to bypass the "Shepherd Type", or to ignore the true working dog in the show ring. This is partly due due to the coincidence of a huge increase in show-entries (mostly from newcomers) and the rather "flashy" eye catching winner at that time. For naturally the novice wishes to win, and feels that he must obtain a dog which resembles the winners at that time; and since he is ignorant of structural and character faults he buys another "eye catcher". So the snowball rolls on until the ring is full of this type, which our newcomer honestly believes to be correct. Also, as first impressions count, when this newcomer becomes a judge he will make awards to this type and thus the mischief continues. I often amuse myself by guessing the date of a judges first experience of the breed, for almost without exception he will "put up" the type that was winning at that period.
The reader may be wondering what all this has to do with "evolution". It is, however, very much part of the present day evolution of the breed, and not all of it good. For we must work constantly to keep the working dog character, the strong nerves and keen senses, the willingness to work coupled with the physical ability to carry this out - in fact never to allow the "pretty" or merely eye-catching animal to take over and supersede the German Shepherd Dog proper."

For me there is only one breed - The German Shepherd Dog - with good conformation and character, or bad, but the name Alsatian, dreamed up by the British Kennel Club in 1919, should be permanently consigned to the history books.

Just my opinion.

great post. totally agree. welcome to you.

As a GSD qualified judge I have to disagree, a badly constructed unfit dog can easily cope moving a couple of times in the ring, however the same dog will show it's failings if moved more. Most of the gaiting of GSDs is done at the same speed as the dog would sork sheep, you should look up the SV Sieger show videos to see GSDs shown in Germany(in a ring which is half of a football pitch & not the tiny ones used here in the UK)

I also judge Beardies & Border Collies & I also move them far more than other judges for the very same reason.

I've never owned an unsound dog & never shown an unfit one. My Beardies & Borders have always been capable of doing the job they were first bred to do. Beardies are driving dogs, it is an insult to the breed to do the usual triangle & up & down. The same with Borders most show Border Collies could not do a full days work as they lack the correct construction being shorter on the leg & heavier in bone.

The GSD has always been gaited more than other breeds because the other breeds are not gaited enough IMHO. My beardie bitch(who subsequently became a Champion)was once beaten for Best Puppy in Show by a Pekingese that never actually walked in the ring !!! My bitch was always admired for her tireless movement & she could easily keep up with my GSDs & Borders

As for the gene pool I have no idea if the Alsatian gene pool is big enough, but the GSD gene pool certainly is

average weight of a male of standard size (65cm) is 35-36kg my current male is oversize at 70cms he weighs 40kg, last English one I had early 90s was 40kg at 10month as an adult 56kg no fat just bone and muscle

re movement they are also assessed going away and toward the judge, not just gaiting around the stadium

...Hmm- I disagree ....it's much easier to hide unbalanced movement when moving the dogs in a 'flash and dash' way - but move the same dog more slowly away and towards the judge on a loose lead and a whole host of construction faults can often be revealed ...

Don't agree, if you know the optimume speed for your dog you can move them up down & once around & faults that would show after a while such as dropping on te forehand can easily be hidden. After all dogs are assessed away & back as well as moving round the ring. I do agree that in this country at KC shows it is not possible to assess the dogs perfectly. Much prefer the SV where all adult dogs also have to gait off lead. I do feel both are neccessary to really assess movement
Further to Madalaine Pickups remarks I rememer watching Edwin White Spartacist's owner judging & was so surprised by the Germanic dogs he put up I asked him about it & his reply. I judge what is correct I breed & show what is winning.

Did you actually read what I wrote ??

The GSD is a trotting breed & trotting is not fast gaiting, but does require the handler to be able to keep up with the dog.

As for other breeds being shown on loose leads-thats a laugh almost all the BOBs in the groups at Crufts were moved strung up on tight leads. This trend is from the US, of course, as it means there is less need for the dog to be properly trained.

I watched the Beardie with it's overlong coupling & very strange hind movement & the BC which lacked the correct drive from behind. If these dogs had to gait for any length of time their toplines & movement would reveal their incorrect construction.

In BSD I've seen some very poor moving dogs win at the highest level-including one of the parents of my friend's dog-who FYI can out move her parent as she resembles the other parent in construction. I've had a very soft spot for the BSD since they were reimported in the late 1950s

What I said - if you bothered to read it - was that the GSD was known as "Chien d'Alsace" in France. The term 'Alsatian' wasn't, therefore, unique to the UK. In the US it was known only as "The Shepherd Dog". Further, as Madeleine Pickup was quoted, she also said that the original "Alsatian Wolf Dog" was chosen as a mistranslation of 'Berger d'Alsace'. (The Alsatian Owner's Encyclopedia, 1964) It is completely incorrect to say they were always known as German Shepherd Dogs anywhere except in Germany. It's also still the case that most of the media will refer to it as an Alsatian - because that's what most of the population call them.

Then why are the Kennel Club so concerned with the topline and hindquarters of the GSD? Can't be the breed standard - that specifies a straight topline. Must be the judges who persist in awarding places to dogs that don't meet the standard.

And, if you are quoting CIDD, you missed out "these conditions have in many cases become so common that they are accepted as normal for the breed".

Please don't forget that amongst other things they suggest that Hip Dysplasia is a) a common problem and b) "efforts are being made to eradicate [it]". But that's not quite true. According to the latest KC Health report hip scores in GSDs are getting worse. That's despite the huge fall off in puppy registrations over the past 5 years (down 30%) and that the vast majority of dogs tested are from German SV lines. Further, statistics from Germany, where they don't score in the same way, show that only 27% of tested dogs have hips rated as 'good' or better. That would be reasonable but a) a dog can be tested and bad results not sent in and b) it is estimated that only about 1/3rd of the dogs are considered good enough to be tested.

And let's not get into the out and out fraud by one of the major kennels that was substituting false X-rays!

BTW - other than the Canadian Kennel Club NO GSD breed standard ever mentions weight. There is NO weight in the KC or FCI standard. Any conjecture about the weight of dog is, therefore, not only meaningless but indicates a judging bias which steps outside the requirements of KC judging.

Probably. The Alsatian gene pool has been widened quite a lot in the last few years by the importation of American and Canadian dogs and by more breeders coming in. It is also the case that in Germany a lot of the breeders are disowning the SV and reverting to the older type of dog. There also many dogs outside West Germany that are more like the old type.

The German SV gene pool ought to be larger. However, research shows that because of the way the SV has been conducted there's a huge amount of common parentage. For example in 2005 17 out of the top 20 Sieger rated dogs shared common ancestry. These 17 were responsible for over 4,000 puppies between them. This was despite a specific SV commitment to 'widen bloodlines'. The top 25 in years 2001-2005 managed to produce a whopping 13,960 puppies. And guess what - 20 of those shared common ancestry.

The 'elite' of the German Stud dogs are very much in demand. For example, Orbit vom Hühnegrab SV No 2107789, managed to service TWENTY bitches in 27 days in one month alone. And yet the SV supposedly has a rule that says that stud dogs must not be used more than 90 times in a year, of which a maximum of 60 such matings can be with German bitches. But, at 1,000+ Euros a pop the owners aren't going to limit activity if they can help it.

Does this affect the gene pool? Well, the SV's own records for the start of 2007 show that FOUR dogs account for 11% of the matings - and there were 1,259 stud dogs registered. In Germany the GSD has become a purely money driven enterprise. The top dog at stud in the 5 years 2003-7 inclusive is estimated to have made over half a million euros. Hardly a hobbyist's income! Progeny of these 'top dogs' can be sold for huge sums to people in the Far East. Sums in excess of 250,000 euros for one dog are not unknown.

The current 'look' of the German SV type is purely down to the mistaken belief that the dog needed 'drive' (which is nonsense when it's supposed to be a trotting dog) and the total control over a long period of the SV by people with a vested interest in promoting their own dogs and lining their own pockets. (To the extent that there has been a major investigation by the German tax authorities).

How do you square your opinion that there should only be one breed when there are quite clearly 2 different conformations of dogs being said to be exemplars of that breed? What Madeleine Pickup said (bless her, lovely lady, mad as a box of frogs - at least in her old age ) echoes exactly what Von Stephanitz said in his 1923 book. What has happened is that the German SV has totally ignored this view and bred a dog that is only now 'correct' from a show point of view and doesn't conform even to their own standard. And it's only 'correct' because it keeps making money for the top German breeders. So, there are 2 very different types of dog now being shown. One looks like the original (the Alsatian type) and one is a crippled version bred from the circle of activity described above.

There you have it. There's a circle of breeding rubbish, judges who are breeders then making up the same rubbish and then breeding more rubbish from the dogs they put up.

OK - so I see a dog trying to get to his owner and/or the sheep but being prevented to do so by either an electric fence or some un-named 'correction', which I take to be an electric shock collar. It shows absolutely nothing about 'herding instinct' nor does it eliminate 'prey instinct'. GSDs tend to be fast learners (I've been quoted 5 repetitions of a scenario are enough for most GSDs to understand and obey) so I wouldn't be at all surprised that the dog in that video doesn't try to get at the sheep if he keeps getting shocked. But by the state of him he's obviously very stressed and doesn't like the situation at all.

To me that 'training' is about as acceptable as the Schutzhund 'training' which involved striking the dog - something which was only removed after it was made illegal in Switzerland. That was what? About 2009? But the SV now renamed that "stick pressure test" so that they could go on using it! There is NO justification, at all, in hitting a dog as part of training for a very dubious sporting qualification.

Yet another reason Schutzhund is past its sell by date.

i think that a lot of the so called english or alsation type aggression stems from the fact that the police didn't want the show dog. so people bred for guard and aggression to sell to the police. any that didn't make it, were then sold as police trained guard dogs, another lucrative business! so there were a lot of part trained or badly trained dogs that were then rescued or taken in by inexperienced handlers. the poor dog has been bashed from pillar to post, in every way possible!