Wolf dog shot in head General Chat

I take it you know this for sure as you are obviously in JK's pocket

Well done for being open minded enough to listen to other peoples point of view and in some cases experience in certain matters..


Having any animal pts is traumatic for us all, but sometimes we need to see outside the box we all sometimes live in.. and except the need for other ways to go about things... we may not like it, but sometimes it is the best for the animal concerned.

Any one who has ever actually witnessed an animal being shot will know how traumatic it is... when an animal is euthanized in this way, it is not done lightly, or out of cruelty... it is simple the most humane at that time.

I suspect that you're right and someone else has misquoted Bob, but if confidences hadn't been betrayed initially then of course the misquoting couldn't have happened.

I know nothing about Genova other than what I'm getting from the website. She is close by, on the farm, taking the food that is being put down for her, and, hopefully, looking after her puppies.

Thanks - I hope so too.

Trust me, Julies pockets aint big enough to get me in. This stupid statement was told to Abbie too, directly from SC's lips so can be taken with a pinch of salt. Sorry to disapoint you but I dont take orders from anyone least of all Julie, and she would know better than to ask that of me.
Bob, Im sorry you are having a raw deal, Ive been watching the cry wolf forum and apparently you and Averil are to blame for all of this. One point of interest to me though, surprisingly, one of the only bitches with a healthy litter CR isnt having problems with is 'Sark', bred by guess who, Julie, one of her, to quote CR's words 'genetically unhealthy inbred NI'.
Must say, its taken you all a while to pick up on the payment terms and such, I saw it ages ago, plus no allowing of spaying and neutering,how could anyone write a contract with those terms in this day and age. Im sorry but if I were to pay that amount for a dog, I would do with it as I saw fit, which would include being able to spay and neuter.

charle wont listen. i dont know who maryann is?!:?

Write him a letter then - at least you can say you've tried.

I told you who she is, the NIS rescue co ordinator, you can get her details from the NIS website.

She said:

Which obviously suggests she knows why you left and you have said thats not true, so she must be spreading lies about you. She said Charlie shot the dog, he is evil ad you left because of it, you say the slaughterman shot the dog, you didnt leave because of it and you have much respect for him. That says she is lying about you, which unfortunatley is what we now see as normal from the NIS commitee.

This Charlie guy obviously didn't do much research into the breeder/previous owner of the bitches he bought

I've met a good few Saarloos Wolfdogs in the Netherlands & non were aggressive nor feral-yes they were aloof & stand offish from me, until they got to know me. I met one breeder who has the most beautiful Saarloos & is exceptionally careful in the placement of her puppies.

Saarloos do need a lot of human imput from day one to develop their trust & mental balance. Much as I greatly admire them, they are not the breed for me.

As they stem from the crossed of a European Wolf bitch & a male GSD their natural behaviour to to flee rather than fight & were used as Guidedog/Serach & Rescue dogs. Aggression & feral behaviour should not be found in a breeding animals.

I know Petra health tests her dogs & having looked at this Charlie's site I can see no mention of any health testing for any of his dogs.

Mass production of Saarloos Wolfdogs & their crosses from "feral"/"near feral" bitches is a fatal accident waiting to happen. It has cost the poor bitch her life & doG knows what will happen to the bitch who has escaped & is rearing her puppies away from all human contact.

I'm not an amateur breeder nor a prolific one, however I learnt at the shoulder of very experienced breeders & IMHO this Charlie guy is a puppy farmer mass producing the latest in "Designer"wolf dogs for money.

I'm nothing to do with the NIS-what/whoever that is.

As for Shaun Ellis-when has he lived with real wild wolves ? The fact that he endorses this guy & has dogs from him would destroy any admiration I could have for him. World Expert-no sorry, THE wolf expert is David Mech-a man with a lifetime's knowledge of really wild wolves & their packs

Sandra (Sansorella) hasn't had her account reactivated yet, but has asked me to post the following on her behalf...

I shouldn’t have been surprised that this topic has been brought up on Dogsey, even though the answers to all the questions are readily available at the place this subject originated. However, I have just read that the original poster has reconsidered her opinion, based on some of the answers that have been posted and she now sees the episode in a different light.

Typically however, the bandwagon picked up its usual passengers who are quick to clutch at snippets of information and pass judgement based on nothing more than hearsay. It is sad that there are those out there all too willing to spout verbal assaults when they have never been in that position. They have even jumped to the wrong conclusions about various people involved, which fortunately have now been corrected.

I know the circumstances and believe CR did the most humane thing. I would just like to confirm for the sceptics who were all too willing to believe otherwise, that he employed a professional slaughter man to carry out the task and has the receipt as proof (not that he needs to prove anything to anyone).

I think CR has found himself in a difficult position. He had a vision or ideal as to what he planned for the future and the only way anyone can get Saarloos into this country is by bringing in adults, which has its own obvious drawbacks. This, combined with the fact that these particular dogs were kept 'feral' and had very little human contact before he got them, made them very stressed in their new clinically clean environment. CR now knows that he made a mistake in breeding them so soon, but as these dogs only come into season once a year and some of them were fairly mature already; he took the decision to breed them. He had no idea that these bitches were going to be so stressed that they would do all their bodies would allow not to have those pups. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I believe CR would be the first to admit that he made an error of judgement in breeding when he did and is rethinking the conditions these dogs will require next time.

Incidentally, I understand that the pups from these Saarloos bitches were not going to be for general sale, they were to be kept to assess how they would turn out after being raised under different circumstances, so his decision was not financially motivated as has been suggested.

I know that it is not unusual for a bitch of any breed to kill her pups if stressed and this is more common after a caesarean. I have witnessed this with three litters of my own after caesareans and with different breeds.

With that particular bitch there was no way that anyone could have got near enough to enable a vet to get a needle in - let alone get the dog to the vet as was ridiculously suggested in an earlier post. Can you imagine for one moment what terror this would have caused the bitch? What Charlie did he did not do lightly, but after discussion and taking advice it was considered to be the route with least risk to any human or other dogs and minimal stress for the dog concerned.

He knew it would be a controversial thing to do and there would be people who would take the views expressed, but he did have the guts to tell the truth knowing it would come back on him from some directions and I respect him for this. Making the decision to have the bitch shot would have been distressing for him and I imagine difficult to come to terms with, but in that position he didn’t have a lot of choice. It would have been bad enough for him dealing with the loss, without the nasty, vindictive comments that are being posted on the forums. It should be noted that these comments are mostly coming from certain people who would condemn anything he did anyway, but he does have a lot of support from people with more understanding.

I have only known CR for a short while, but one thing I have noticed is that he doesn't make rash decisions and he thinks very carefully before making any response or announcement (unlike myself who jumps in with both feet, all guns blazing!)

I am not suggesting we all go round shooting our dogs, but there are instances when this is the best and most humane option. I have experienced a dog that had to be fed drugged meat through an open window in order for the vet to get close enough to administer a needle. That dog then fought the drug and took a considerable time to be put to sleep – which was distressing for the dog and the owners. CR saved his dog from this added trauma.

Those who disagree have obviously not seen a really aggressive dog. I am thinking of people who over dramatise and consider a 'play nip' to be a bite. They really don't know what they are talking about and I would hate to see what they would make of a real dog bite! These people have probably never held a dog that took several minutes to put to sleep. Perhaps if they had they would take a different view.

I am also aware that this incident is going to reflect badly on the use of these dogs and fuel the flames of the 'anti-wolfdog' brigade. I firmly believe that with these particular dogs it was nurture not nature that has made them difficult to handle. You only need to go on the European websites to see how they behave under different circumstances. Read the posts by owners of wolfdog hybrids already in this country for testimony of how they behave as a family pet.

Finally, yet another thread couldn’t go by without someone mentioning my name and I am amused to think that people assume I have influence over Charlie’s decisions, especially over who would be welcome to visit him and who wouldn’t. The idea is absolutely ludicrous and I am sure Charlie is laughing as loudly as me!

It isn't just the fact that these bitches were bred so soon though, it's the fact that they were bought in bulk and from what would appear to be a bad breeder...no one has addressed that at all. What decent breeder would sell 7 dogs to a commercial breeder?

Of course his decision to mate them was financially motivated. At the end of the day,he would sell them on as adults or mate them and sell their offspring, so there is profit involved, as a commercial breeder there is no way that there isn't, not necessarily immediately but down the line.

I truly don't understand how everyone can say 'look how honest he's been, he has nothing to hide'...well he did hide it, he told people the bitch had gone for 'remedial training' or the like, when actually she had been shot!!! He only confessed the lie when he was found out!!! That's not honesty!!!!

Why can't puppy Sarloos be brought in by the way???

Hi Dyane.
From the link you posted.

This is the kennel all the Saarloos came from, she even came over here and stayed at Charlies (I think) to introduce him to the dogs and get used to them for a while. There are pictures of her with the dogs on is site.

And that ends my contribution on this thread for the time being. As said earlier, I can only marvel at the number of 'experts' on here who can pass judgement on people, dogs, and environments that they have never personally encountered. And slag off someone who is attempting to introduce a fantastic breed into the UK without really having the faintest idea of his plans or intentions.

And he doesn't plan to sell any of the pups in the near future, so forget the 'quick profit' allegations.

Anyway, this doesn't seem to be a debating forum, just a place where most people take entrenched positions and are closed to anything that might cause them to reappraise their views. So nothing I can write will change people's views. Perhaps if/when they meet one of the dogs Charlie has bred in the flesh they will begin to understand how exceptional they are.

I didn't say anything about a quick profit did I??????

as for entrenched position...I have merely asked what sort of breeder sells 7 dogs to a commercial breeder in the first place???

As Ihave said countless times, I have nothing against these dogs, infact if you read one of my earlier posts I actually said I hope someone, somewhere is quietly doing a much better job of starting the breed off in this country.

As far as I can see...
1) this is a commercial breeder, by being that there is always going to be an interest in profit. It's a business.
2) 7 dogs were bought to breed from...I question what breeder would sell 7 adult dogs to someone in another country, knowing that person was a commercial breeder?
3) The dogs were 'semi feral' and were bred from almost immediately
4) 1 dog had to be shot as it was so aggressive.
5) Another dog has escaped and has had her litter outside, noone knows where her den is and she cannot be approached.
6) The breeder lied about where the aggressive dog had gone until someone leaked the truth, at which point he came clean.
Now I am sure the kennels are lovely and clean and the chap is charismatic. I am sure his heart is in the right place. I am sure he cares about the breed. BUT with the 6 points
I've mentioned, surely I can't be the only one questioning it?

I am sure the dogs bred from this kennel are lovely. I have had experienceof dogs from a commercial breeder and they were lovely. Whether they were good examples of the breed is debatable though......

As for the whole NI thing...I'm not interested! This is a thread about the wolfdogs...not NIs and I am only commenting on this thread.

Sorry Dyane I missed this point.

From Charlies site:
All my own home-bred breeding bitches and dogs are hip x-rayed and BVA scored at 12 months of age.

I think the Saarloos are too, I know Luporossa (Saarloos) has 0:0 hips.

Never met her nor her own dogs(I think)If the bitches did come from her, then Petra's dogs are nothing like the ones Charlie got from her. I cannot understand why he had to import Adult bitches-under the PP scheme they could have been 10 months old & if an inwhelp bitch had been brought in via quarantine, then she could have returned home after the puppies were weaned & the puppies could leave Q @ 8 weeks(I think it is 8 weeks)I know he wouldn't have got any dog from Petra('cos I've asked her)she doesn't approve of dogs being kept totally kennelled no matter how big a paddock they have to exercise in. Her dogs are in house during the day & by preference(of the dogs)outside on a night with loads of good outdoor accomodation.

I know some of Charlies are in the house too, not sure how many. I thought you'd like to know where they came from though.

I must have missed that bit as I didn't see any scores quoted on the Saarloos pages-he doesn't do elbow scoring then nor Haemophilia ? Should do as GSDs played a big part in the development of Saarloos

Hm interesting-must add that Petra doesn't let her dogs go as breeding machines either-she doesn't sell adults