Epilepsy in NI's Controversial

Unfortunately I heard some more distressing news today.

It appears that yet another TIDA breeder (also a committee member) is breeding from epileptic dogs.

It is a well known fact in some circles that a TIDA stud dog at only 1 year old collapsed with a heart attack. This same dog also suffers from epilepsy, as do his parents who also suffer from hip and heart problems.

Also allegedly another of this breeders dogs has 2 brothers with epilepsy and the mother of these dogs was put down due to epilepsy.

It came as a shock to hear this and the thought that these dogs could be bred with the other line with cases of epilepsy could possibly cause a epidemic of epilepsy in TIDA bred dogs.

That is truely disgusting, How can we make the breed better and iron out all the problems if things like this keep happining?

So instead of everyone spouting off and waxing lyrically about 'stuff' ... how about some kind of 'group' agreement to not breed from dogs with epilepsy in the lines and to get together and send samples into the Canine Epilepsy Network to help with their research?

All I know is if my Kato came down with epilipsy I would want answers it worrys me as it is as does his hips.

As a newbie myself the problem is no one knows who to trust who is telling truth and who isnt.
But after talking to a guy today he says its a heartbreaking disease, so if people could be honest and someone take 1st foot forwards maybe progress couldbe made

take kato to the vet, get hip scores done, ask questions about epilepcy, just maybe your vet could reassure

kcjack I live with a severely epileptic Utonagan. He and I have been through hell and back and I almost lost him last November. We have been through every test imaginable - MRI, spinal tap ... the lot. But all we are left with is medication because his epilepsy is hereditary and I can't do a damn thing about it.

For informaton, Loki suffers from Grand Mal clusters every few months. There were only six weeks between the last lot, which left me devastated because I thought we had things under control. He is on potassium bromide and in comparison with his peers who are on phenobarbital, his clusters are no worse - perhaps better? - so we will keep him on this regime and re-evaluate in time. There is a new, human drug, that I might ask for, but we will have to see.

I have tried to tell people that because the mode of inheritance is unknown - do not breed from dogs with epilepsy in their lines. Do not breed from dogs if their history is unknown. What more can I do?

Lucky Star my heart goes out to you as I have been in your position with an epileptic dog. It does truly disgust me that breeders are breeding from dogs with known epilepsy in their lines. They either don't realize the heartache they are causing or they don't bl*ody care and just see £££££. And I would probably think it is ££££££.

Oh thank you!!! I agree, I think it's mostly ££££!!!

I think so too.

Lucky Star. It scares me that my Sacha has this in her lines and thankfully hasn't had any fits so far but I feel for you and Loki so much especially knowing it could have been and may possibly be us going through the same thing.

I have not put what information I know on here to pick at a certain side despite what some may think. I have posted what I know because I don't want anyone to go through what could have been avoided with knowledge.

I made a phone call to a good friend tonight to tell her that her dog had relatives with epilepsy. It was one of the hardest things I've done and obviously hurt us both but I stand by my opinion that people need to know the truth.

That's a really hard thing to do and I sympathise as I know someone else who has to do this with an alarming regularity.

There isnt much I can add to what has already been said but for those with dogs who suffer from epilepsy, my heart goes out to you. I shared my live with a GSD many years ago that had epilepsy and it was the most heartbreaking thing I've ever gone through. To see what my gorgeous girl went through was beyond devastating so I wish you and your dogs well.

I'm not affiliated with either breed group since I dont like the politics but I do live with an NI (a very badly bred one at that although healthy so far) so my comments are general.

Anyone knowingly breeding from lines that are producing epilepsy need to know the heartache they are causing and need to be stopped. Both groups need to sort themselves out for the sake of the dogs and owners to eradicate this awful disease. I would hate to see more owners going through what LS and her dog Loki is going through. Its unfair and its not right. Backbiting and argueing is getting no-one anywhere and it certainly isnt helping the dogs or their owners.

Well said Elaine, I have done lots of research regarding NIs since getting Kato and have give up as just falls on deaf ears.
Its the dogs who are suffering and the innocent owners who dont know what they are getting into. My Kato is badly bred and dogs from his breeder are well known to have epilepsy, bad hips and bad stomachs.
I feel until ALL breeders of Nis do DNA testing its going from bad to worse. I feel if they all really cared would work together.
Unfortunatly most (not all) breeders of Nis are knocking them out at an almighty rate as they are popular at the minute, but is only going to end in disaster.

Look I am not trying to cause an arguement or sticking up for either group BUT you cannot keep pinning this on the NIS and the breeders registered with the NIS what about the breeders who are not with either group? Surely they need to start taking actions aswell?
These breeders can do what they want when they want and they dont seem to be held accountable at all and they answer to no-one but themselves and yet you dont seem to have a problem with these breeders.
I think epilepsy is a terrible thing to have to deal with in animals or humans and I hope the sooner it is sorted the better for everyone involved

I have only just joined this forum, on my breeder's advice, and I am totally amazed that NO-ONE has seen that the most probable cause of epilepsy in this breed is INBREEDING. It seems it was only a matter of time.

The breeder of Abbie's dogs told me about the ONE MATING that later was shown to have produced a couple of epileptic dogs, but this was years down the line and has only just become apparent and stemmed from ONE MATING and all other litters from that particular bitch are fine but the bitch has been retired now.

I have also seen the reports and letters/emails from experts giving advice about this problem and I am reassured that all that can be done is being done.

Anyone can buy a dog from a supposed reputable breeder, breed that bitch on the breeders advice, then find out years later that they were ill advised.

As for Abbie worrying about her bitch I have been told that particular litter would of produced a clear, a carrier and an affected. The affected and carrier have been identified so she can rest assured that her bitch is clear.

It's a great pity that she is scaremongering and slandering on assumptions and hearsay. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Perhaps she should of contacted her breeder for advice.

I'm sorry but genetics do not work that way - we can make a theoretical assumption that a certain % of pups will be clear/carrier/affected but that is all it is, an assumption. In reality they could all be affected!

Sorry I have to agree to differ on that one as I have seen the genetic breeding chart produced by one of the leading geneticists with regard to this particular case.

Also, he says that there are many causes of epilepsy, but some dogs have a genetic disposition for it but may never show it, they need a 'trigger' to cause the fits in the first place.

I agree........if the chance of passing on a disease is for example 1 in 4. That means every pup has a 1 in 4 chance of getting the disease and not in a litter of 4 then 1 will be effected. Life would be so much easier if this was the case

Even if this WERE right (which I don't believe it is) then you will have to agree that since the carrier and affected have been identified that will drastically reduce the odds of Abbie's bitch being either a carrier or affected.

No unfortunately, as I said evry pup has the same risk regardless of its litter mates

In-breeding does not cause problems, however if a problem already exists in the line then there is more of a chance of that problem occuring in a dog that is in-bred.

No, as Lionhound stated - each pup carries the same risk of inheriting the condition. People might express it in terms of a reduced percentage but in actuality you just don't know.

Wouldn't it just!

This following case is a prime example (the condition I am talking about is not epilepsy, just an autosomal recessive condition). The sire obviously carried the gene as he had produced some 'affected' offspring before. The dam was clinically unaffected although it was unknown if she was carrier or clear. Looking at the probability, if she was clear 0% of pups would be affected, if she was a carrier then 25% of the pups would be affected. As it turned out, all 5 pups were affected by this particular condition so the bitch is obviously a carrier. This shows that genetics doesn't always go by what the theory implies ;-)