Can you get different colour dobermanns? Questions

This is really interesting, I saw an Isabella once at Newark, I really liked it, but not being a Dobermann person couldn't tell you if it was correct.

I love the photos that you put on Trouble, can you get a mixture of colours in one litter?

I used to have dobes years ago and I had a black and tan, April, choc and tan, Raffika, and the blue and tan, she was called Piaf.
There is a recessive gene that causes the blue pigmentation and it also means that they have very sparse coats and sometimes go bald. My dogs live out, and my blue never lost her coat, the vet told me it was because she lived outside. Towards the end of her life she always used to come in at night in the winter, but as soon as it got warm again she never wanted to!!! She was 11 years old when she died, 19 January 2000, I still have her ashes.
I will look around and find some piccies to put up of her. I got her from a bloke in Bawtry, Vyda Dobermans, at the age of 17 months as she had been returned to him.

There is a lovely blue bitch here thats been imported from Russia, her coat is superb! In Russia they do not breed just to produce a colour, using predominantly black Dobes carrying the blue gene, they have coats as good as the blacks!

It's known as Colour Dilution Alopecia and affects blues and fawns (isabella). Other breeds can have it too but Dobermanns seem to be the worst affected.

Unfortunately it's not just hair loss... the follicles can become infected resulting in skin disease.

Never knew there were that many colours either! Must confess I have always had a penchant for a chocolate and tan Dobie, maybe when Jamie is older....mmmm

This is 5 colours all in one litter, it depends on what colours are in the parents lines, obviously black bred to black for generations only produces black. Brown is usually bred to black to maintain a good dark coat colour and will produce any number of blacks and browns. I'm no expert but obviously the above litter has come from mixed lines to produce so many colours in the one litter and the fact that the litter has whites raises issues. The whites I've seen in the flesh were actually cream and not unattractive, but there is a great deal of controversy surrounding them and their health issues. I'm not getting involved in that arguement.

Quite obviously not my words Hope this explains it all

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Coat colour inheritance in the Dobermann is relatively easy to predict. While there are actually 5 colours, there are only 3 sets of genes that determine colour. When discssing genetics and genotypes, basic scientific nomenclature dictates that a capital letter is used to represent the dominant gene in a pair, and the lower case letter designates the recessive.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The first pair of genes we will discuss are the 2 most common, seen in all Dobes. They are the colour genes, determining the basic, intrinsic colour of the Dobe, either Black (B) or Brown (b). All Dobermanns are either Black or Brown, but colour can be modified by the other 2 pairs of genes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]If a Dobermann has 2 Black genes (BB) it will be Black. If it has 2 Brown genes (bb) it will be Brown. If it has one of each (Bb) it will be a Brown factored Black, which is a Black capable of producing Brown. Every parent Dobermann contributes either a Black gene or a Brown gene to its offspring. BB Dobermanns always contribute a B gene, bb Dobermanns always contribute a b gene, and Bb Dobermanns can contribute one or the other, with a 50% probability of each.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The second pair of genes we will discuss determine the intensity of colour. This pair of genes is called the dilution factor, seen in Black Dobermanns as Blue, and in Brown Dobermanns as Fawn. Becuase dilution is a recessive trait, having the effect of lightening the colour of Blacks and Browns, 2 of these recessive genes must be present in order to express visible influence. We will call the Lack of dilution D, and the presence of dilution d. A Dobermann with DD will not show or be able to produce dilution. A Dobermann with Dd will not show dilution - it will be Black or Brown, but it will be able to produce dilution. A Dobermann that is dd is a dilute - a Blue or a Fawn. A Black Dobermann with dd is a Blue and a Brown Doermann with dd is a Fawn. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Two important terms are genotype and phenotype. The genotype is the Dobermanns genetic potential to express a particular trait, in this case colour. The phenotype describes how the Dobermann looks - in this case, Black, Brown, Blue or Fawn (or White - we will get to White in a minute.) There are 5 possible phenotypes. There are 27 possible genotypes, but we will only discuss 9 right now.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The first is a Black Dobermann that can only produce Black offspring. This Dobes genotype is BBDD. It is a double Homozygous (2 pairs of matching genes, i.e BB,bb,DD,dd)dominant. This is referred to as a #1 Black.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The second is a Black that can produce Black and Blue offspring. It is a Homozygous Black that 'carries' a recessive dilution gene. (heterozygous - a non-matching pair of genes, i.e - Bb,Dd) The genotype of this Dobe is BBDd. It is referred to as a #2 Black.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The third is a Black that can produce Black and Brown offspring - it is heterozygous (Bb) for colour, and homozygous for intensity - in this case, DD - it can not produce dilution. This is called a #3 Black. Its genotype is BbDD.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The fourth is a double heterozygous. It is heterozygous for colour Bb,and heterozygous for dilution Dd. It 'carries' both a 'hidden' Brown gene, and a 'hidden' gene for dilution. It is called a #4 Black, and it can produce Black, Brown, Blue and Fawn. Its genotype is BbDd. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The fifth is a #5 Blue. This is also a double homozygous. It is homozygous Black,BB, that is also homozygous for dilution, dd. It can produce Blacks and Blues only. The genotype is BBdd.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The sixth is a #6 Blue. This Dobermann is heterozygous for colour, Bb. It is homozygous for dilution, dd. Its genotype is Bbdd and it can produce Blacks, Browns, Blues and Fawns.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The seventh is a #7 Brown. This Dobermann is also a double homozygous - bb makes it brown. DD means that it can not produce dilution.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The eighth is a #8 Brown. This Brown can produce dilution. Its genotype is bbDd.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The ninth is a #9 Fawn. This is a double homozygous recessive. It contains 2 pairs of recessive genes. bb makes it Brown, and dd lightens the Brown, giving Fawn.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]It is important to realize, that each parent contributes one gene FROM EACH PAIR to each of its offspring. Therefore, each parent contributes one gene for colour and one for intensity of colour to each pup.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]BUT HOW DO YOU GET WHITE ???[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]OK[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Here's how. The white is a recessive trait. A Dobe must have both genes in the pair to show white. This pair of genes is a masking factor. What it does, is it hides the true colour (and intensity of colour) of the Dobe containing this pair of genes. Becuase it is a recessive, a Dobe that is white, has the homozygous gene pair ww. A Dobe that has the homozygous gene pair WW is not white, nor can it ever produce white. A Dobe with the gene pair Ww is white - factored. This means that it ' carries ' the masking factor as a hidden recessive.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Numbers 1 - 9 listed above must be either WW, Ww or ww. Each of the 9 above genotypes have 3 possibilities with respect to white. For example, a #1 Black, BBDD; A #1 Black that is neither white , nor white - factored has a genotype of BBDDWW - it is a triple homozygous dominant. A # 1 Black that is white - factored has a genotype BBDDWw. A # 1 Black that IS white, has a genotype BBDDww. This applies to all 9 of the genotypes.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]In review, the three pairs of genes determining the colour ( phenotype ) of your Dobe are; [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]1.) The colour genes, B and b.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]2.) The intensity of colour genes, D and d.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]3.) The masking factor genes, W and w.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Each and every Dobe will have a pair of each genes that may be homozygous ( matching pair ) or heterozygous ( mixed pair ). If the genotypes of a pair of Dobes are known, the colours of their offspring can be predicted with accuracy. The important thing to remember, however, is that what is predicted and what actually happens are not allways the same. For example, under normal circumstances, all offspring in a given litter can be predicted to be 50% male and 50% female. However, a perfectly even split is rarely seen. Same thing with colour. If you roll a 6 - sided dice 6 times, you are not likely to roll each number once, although the prbability of rolling any particular number is always 1 in 6. [/FONT]​

Thanks everyone for the info, great pics etc this is a very interesting and informative thread.

The lady in Southport who I got Raffika, my chocolate one, from also had an Isabella there, and I always wanted one, but never found one unfortunately. Never ever seen a white one at all, is this a relatively new development? Have been out of Dobies since Piaf died.

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Again not my words[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The first white Dobermann registered with the American Kennel Club was Padula's Queen Sheba, she was born on November the 10th 1976. She was sired by Rasputin VI & her Dam was Dynamo Humm, both of which were Black/Tan. When Sheba's application for registration was sent to the AKC, they had never been asked to register a Dobermann of this colour before so they implemented an investigation. The AKC determined that Sheba was, in fact, purebred, since she was the offspring of two purebred Dobes, so her registration was approved & accepted in 1978.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]In the following years, many tests were performed on Sheba & her offspring. It was determined from this testing that the gene that produces this colour is a masking gene. In other words, it takes over & masks the colour that the dog would otherwise be. There is no evidence, however, that this gene carries with it any deleterious or adverse health concerns that are sometimes associated with whita animals, such as deafness, blindness, or unstable minds.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Many of the early white Dobes had problems which were, for the most part, caused by the indiscriminant breeding practices of those involved with the colour early on, as well as the gene manifestation itself. The original dogs were heavily inbred - mother to son, brother to sister, father to daughter & so on. Such breeding is known to cause problems if done on a continuing basis, as is evident in early pedigrees.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]The coat colour is a dull white, but can vary from a very light snow white to a dark, almost fawn colour. The markings are a white, & they appear in the normal Dobe places. The eyes are blue, the pads, lips, & skin are pink.[/FONT]​

Please be aware there are many many white Dobermanns in rescue in the USA for whatever reason. So like many dogs bought for their unusual colouring they became a fashion item, readily given up when problems arose.​

Well, you learn somethin new every day I had no idea dobes came in more than 2 colours.

Lovely puppy pics btw:smt007

these are some fawn ones,
and some examples of all four colours apparently...

http://www.dpca.org/PublicEd/PEC/PECFourColors.html#

Cheers,what a great thread this is,thanks everyone,xxxxxxxx

This thread is fascinating , loved the pictures trouble brilliant , i also never knew there was five colours , i have only ever seen black and tan , and liver , until you posted the pictures xxdk

White Dobermanns were bred for money alone and they suffer dreadful health and temperament problems. One breeder here (the only one) imported an in whelp white bitch that was returned to its breeder because of poor temperament, she then mated it and shipped it here, where the buyer said she had no intention of breeding them (why then import an in whelp bitch?) Susequently she HAS bred more whites proving an overwhelming lie in her initial statements.

A few statements that may help understand the issues with them. These are from owners of whites, in the US.

I am the owner of an albino dobe....[who] has several health problems, just at the tender age of 9 months. (almost 10!) He's photophobic...can't stand to be out in the sunlight (This dog was euthanized in January of 2001 for worsening aggression, after biting the owner and one of the family's children. The owner believes that the aggression was related to increasing fear and blindness.)

She does, however, also appear to have the vision problems common to albinos. On the afternoon I adopted her, it had already become obvious that she doesn't recognize people from across a room. Even though she had already become familiar with me, she would have to actually smell my hand before she would relax and wag her tail.

This is the only dog who has ever run into the fence twice; and he's the only dog who has ever fallen into that hole in the yard. He doesn't seem to see very well. He doesn't squint in the sun, but his pupils constrict so much that they nearly disappear

" I participated in your research study several years ago and have a sad but important update. ****, the albino Doberman we adopted from **** in October, 2000 at 8 months of age, attacked me yesterday. We had her euthanized. The injuries to my left arm are quite extensive, but the emergency room physician was able to close the wounds. **** had become considerably more aggressive toward company, having "nipped" several visitors on their arms over the past year. After the 3rd incident, we crated her anytime the doorbell rang. She also had become more aggressive toward our other Dobermans, particularly the deaf one. Last November, **** attacked the deaf Doberman quite severely. Surgery to close her 20+ wounds cost over $1,000. **** was 8 months old when we adopted her. She came from a breeder in **** who released her and her littermate to the rescue when she couldn't sell them. **** had never been abused, was strictly a house pet, wore Doggles when outside, and was treated with love, respect, and structure as are our other 4 Dobermans. Totally unprovoked, the attack on me yesterday and her subsequent euthanasia leaves us sad but convinced that, regardless of its environment, the albino is an unstable animal. The irony is that I had just the previous night read your research findings, which greatly concerned me."

very informative post dawn , i enjoyed reading it thanx xxdk

Don't white boxers suffer the same health problem eg deafness or is this a myth???

Yes, white Boxer are susceptible to colour related deafness but this is different from the Dobermann albinism. It's a different type of white that removes pigment cells, which are critical to the development of normal hearing. Not just Boxers, it can affect any dog with white markings, particularly in the head/ear area.

I haven't heard of albinism being associated with ear deformities.... I think the deaf Dobe referred to above may be normal coloured. There is another type of deafness in dogs that does occur in the breed, and is not associated with pigment.

Well I never, I didn't know there were other colours apart from Black & Tan and the Liver!!

Its really sad but albinoism in any animal causes health issues. I an had albino rat that went deaf and attacked me because they didnt hear me enter the cage, a friend of mine had an albino rabbit that went blind and its well known that white cats most frequently go deaf.

I never knew about albino Dobes existing and I have never seen a proper albino dog but I imagine the same rules apply to any breed.