Working stock dogs Discussions

I honestly don't think there is one (a definitive answer I mean)

Yeh, but I'm fairly sure they don't lose any sleep over it nor are they likely to start campaigning to separate the two registries! There's 'having plenty to say' and there's havign a real problem....the two things are not the same The people I know may casually slag them off but they're not really that bothered by it.

I also meant to repeat that there simply isn't the divide here that is seen in North America nor is their ever likely to be, you would be really hard pressed to find anyone here with such extreme views either way.

The same goes for the people I know

Sue, I actually said "In America one can obtain a herding "title" on a dog which follows sheep around sniffing their backsides". I should have clarified I was talking about AKC titles but since this discussion was on the vein of KC VS ISDS I didn't think it was necessary, I apologise if I have misled anyone. However by the same token I did not mention the USBCHA and I didn't say that is the only type of dog in America - I am well aware of the USBCHA and the real ISDS style trials which are held over there. As you quite rightly have pointed out the USBCHA do not give out titles to poodles and other breeds which should not be allowed to terrorise sheep in a small pen! I have seen photos of a Papillion at one of these AKC herding instinct tests and it is nothing but cruelty to sheep and completely pointless in my opinion. There are also some hideous videos of AKC herding instinct tests on YouTube which would be excellent fodder to animals rights people.

I am a shepherd and I also run my dogs in sheep dog trials including the National, I do not care what people choose to breed for, I will breed what I want to breed and if other people want to take off in another direction so be it, I won't be buying one of their pups and they won't be buying one of mine. I used to worry about the breed separating but I think it is preferable to people thinking they can breed a dog which has never seen sheep for 10 generations and it will be just as good a worker as one which has been carefully bred to work sheep with each generation.

No because they need the KC reg to be allowed to show but some are pure ISDS dogs all the way.

Oh yes completly agree with that. I defintally know what lines i like & dont like in ob, but dont have strong views about say agility or trialling dogs as i am not interested in those sports. Although im not interested in breed showing i do have fairly strong thoughts on the state of SOME show lines BCs,but at the end of the day theres plenty of type in type & plenty of choice also!

A perusal of your website seems to indicate that color (colour) is the most important characteristic. Nothing else seems nearly as meaningful.

That sure depends on who you talk to. The folks I've spoken to (US, Canada, and UK) seem to view the kennel club "Border Collie" as another breed altogether. I'm talking International, National, and US/Canadian National winners here.

The issue is not and never will be that anyone's personal dogs are not just as wonderful and precious to them as anyone else's dogs are to that person.

The issue is responsible breeding, what folks are/should be breeding for, and how breeding will affect the future of the breed.

Let's face it - you don't breed Thoroughbred race horses based on color or some other arbitrary characteristic. You breed them based on those characteristics that make the breed what it is. If you breed for other characteristics (size, jumping ability, color, "anybody can ride one" temperament), at some point in time, you will no longer be breeding Thoroughbred race horses. You will be breeding something else, descended from the Thoroughbred race horse. Just don't call it a Thoroughbred race horse.

If you don't breed Border Collies/Working Sheepdogs for what defines the breed - the instincts and abilities, physical and mental, that make the breed the world's premier sheepdog (and a doggone good dog on many other types of stock) - then you are no longer breeding Border Collies.

For all those who are breeding away from the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog, let's call the dogs what they are: if you are breeding for conformation - Barbie Collies; performance sports - Sport Collies, obedience - GRITs (or Golden Retrievers in Tuxes); companions - Pet Collies, but you won't be breeding Border Collies.

Some folks may maintain stockworking charactertistics as they chose to breed for other aspects as well (color, conformation, etc.) but they will be severely limiting their available gene pool by further restricting for arbitrary and unessential characteristics. At some point, their breeding program will suffer without added infusion of "outside" bloodlines.

Some KC-bred dogs will turn out to be good stockdogs, just like some working-bred dogs possess the characteristics that would make them a successful show or performance or comanion dog. But the odds are against getting what you are not breeding for, especially for such a complexity of traits as stockwork requires.

As for infusing ISDS or working-bred genes into the KC gene pool on occasion to "maintain" stock working ability - if folks weren't breeding without regard to ability in the first place, they wouldn't need to bring in working lines to try to replenish it.

I can't locate this right now but, looking at the KC website, I can't find stockwork ("herding") testing listed. I do know that there is a program where a KC dog can be tested through ISDS trialling to gain a recognition as a "proven" sheepdog.

I understand that there has only been one dog to accomplish that. Now, I don't know whether that's because KC "Border Collies" that have attempted that "test" just haven't been capable of being successful, or if so few KC folks with "Border Collies" have felt that working ability was important enough to even attempt the "test".

To me, that just says something about the importance (or lack thereof) of what the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog is all about within the Kennel Club (conformation/performance sports) community. I apologize that I can't locate the information on just what that program/test is right now.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, love our dogs, use them in ways that are humane and satisfying to them and us, and realize that is a divide in breeding goals that will, ultimately if not already, result in the creation of a new breed or breeds, descended from the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog.

Hallelujah to that!!

think you might be on your own there actually...that may be happening in the US but while our registries remain intertwined and we still seek common (if not identical) goals I think most people agree that we're doing ok as we are, maybe it's quintessential britishness

I have working Border Collies. I also trial in the USBCHA venue. My dogs also work my sheep as well as working cattle on cattle ranches and other sheep farms. Dogs from my breeding have gone to trial homes as well as working large cattle and/or sheep operations.

I breed my dogs for what they were bred from for many years. Anything else is a dis-service to them

Diane

Right WHOAAAAAAA!!!!!! I am talking about UK obedience bred dogs. Do you know about those lines/dogs/ breeding programes or even the demands of the sport. Unless you do then dont critise my post, or compare my dogs with dogs in the US.
Are you aware for instance that the MAJORITY of UK ob dogs arent KC Breed registered?

And isnt the BC changing all the time anyway, as any dog breed? we now Have lines better for working Cattle, different types of sheep etc etc. If you have a Type of working bred collie that you like i suggest you put all your effort into breeding that type & dont slag off my dogs. They are amazing , bred for Purpose.& certainley not a poor relative to anyone. If you dont like that type thats really good, but dont tell me that they arent a BC PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I probably have more coloured dogs than most people, but they have to be good working dogs to get to stay with me ;-) I have been quite lucky in that my first dogs which I knew nothing about when I bought them turned out to be quite useful dogs, and once you have a reputation for being "the lassie with the merles" people offer you any funny coloured dog which may cross their path. However, I wouldn't keep an inferior dog just because I liked the way it looked, it has to be a top class (in my opinion!) dog too.

I do earn my living shepherding and until March I shepherded 850 cross ewes and 400 head of Shetland and Shetland crosses. However, such as life, the cross ewes were put off the farm in favour of horses. I now earn a living Shepherding the Shetlands and as a contract shepherd which means I can go to any farm within a hundred mile radius to gather and handle sheep. There is no way I would get away with a weak or ill trained dog, they are paying me to get the sheep in and quite often the sheep don't see a dog between my visits, just a quad bike zooming round them.

When I first started running my dogs at trials every trial I went to I'd get a comment about them being fancy, is there a bit of beardie in them, are they registered, and so on. Despite my inadequacy as a handler once I'd run them and they'd shown they were ok, the comments stopped.

I think most shepherds/farmers in the UK don't care about KC, and actually a lot of them don't even hold with ISDS dogs and they would say about ISDS dogs what some people are saying about KC ones. We have a lot of problems in agriculture in the UK (F&M caused by either a research company or the government for a start!), and I think most people are worried about where the next pound is coming from, not who is breeding what kind of dogs for what purpose. I know my bf who is also a shepherd would lie awake worrying about the state of the dogs, but he would be thinking of working sheep dogs only, not KC or any other kind. If you asked him what he thought of the state of working dogs in the country, he could (and does) talk about it for several hours, no problem. If you asked him about the KC dogs, I expect it would be a one line answer ;-))

I must point out I ran at the International in the Young Handler class so did not get there on merit other than being the youngest available handler in Scotland at the time!! However, Ffion won the oldest Open sheep dog trial in Scotland last year and I think that would be the first time a merle has achieved that.

This thread has been most interesting. Love your dogs, provide them suitable forever homes and activities, and breed (if you must) intelligently for the right reason or get pups/dogs from those who do (and it's obvious we disagree on what the right criteria for breeding are).

I've spent more than enough time here, don't expect to change anyone's opinion but hope to have gotten some folks thinking of how the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog became the dog it is now through breeding for "the work", not through breeding for appearance, or sports performance, or the pet market (which all are more profitable than producing pups/dogs for working situations).

I have livestock chores to do and a dog that's eager and capable of helping me with them (and a youngster that can't wait for his turn)...

Thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences Sue. I have found the discussion very interesting.

I've been following this thread with interest and in between the sniping and condescending comments of some there are some interesting points here.
One thing that saddens me considering we all share a love of this breed is that there is so much we can learn from each other. We have people on here that cover the wide variety of the border collies accomplishments.
People that show, work, do obedience, flyball, agility, working trials, mountain rescue, the list goes on.
I am more interested in hearing about what people do with their dogs and learning from them rather than point scoring with each other and turning it into another breed argument.
Just talking to people like Moobli and doing a bit with my boy, I am now looking at working him. It would be something to add to my interests. I don't have the setup to do it full time on a day to day basis but putting arrangemenets in place to regularly work him. From speaking to others I am also looking into working trials, the more I do with my dog, the more I enjoy and the more he wants to learn.
And that's just my point, anyone that has collies know that they differ dog to dog, they are not a breed you can put in one group or another. It is an individual choice of matching up the right dog to what you want to do with it in life. By doing this you are doing the best for yourself and the best for your dog.
My interest is in the breed and the people that have them, I'm not interested in the umbrella registration societies who think they know best, as most do not listen or subscribe to them, we are all intelligent enough to decide what's best for our dogs.

One thing I have noticed as a commonality among a number of posts by folks here who utilize their dogs for activities other than stockwork, is the use of the expression (summed up as or precisely expressed as) "I want".

Farmers/ranchers/stockmen and women/shepherds have a need for a stockworking partner that is capable, instinctive, sound, healthy, biddable, athletic, and intelligent. The dogs have been bred for a purpose and all these characteristics have been part of that breeding history.

Once you breed for "something else", you will eventually no longer be "producing" the same type of dog. Yes, the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog is a breed/type of great variability - that is one of the breed's strengths. But it all comes back to suitability for stockwork, with different types of stock, terrains and climates, and situations or jobs.

Ask yourself (or the individual you buy a pup/dog from) whether you are doing what you want or what is best for the breed and the future of the breed.

Of course, if you feel the future of the breed or your goal for the breed is as a pet, show dog, or performance dog (obedience, agility, flyball, whatever) rather than as the world's premier stockdog, I expect you will breed/purchase from a breeder with that goal in mind. And that is where we disagree.

The situation for the Border Collie may be much better in the UK than the US in terms of working registry/breeding versus kennel club registry/breeding. But breeding away from the original purpose of the breed will eventually result in a different breed. That's not my opinion - that's reality.

The issue is not about anyone's particular dog(s) but about the criteria on which breeding is based, and the future of the breed.

By the way, the fog was so thick this morning that I could see maybe 50 feet in front of me. I needed to get chores done in the short window between daylight appearing and leaving for work.

I had 22 recently weaned steers and heifers to round up and feed conditioning concentrate, in a pasture of several acres. It would have taken me who-knows-how-long to find them and convince them to come to the feeders as they are rather new to this arrangement. Some are downright skeptical of the whole situation and therefore don't come in unless they are gently persuaded.

I took my dog to the fence and said, "away to me", and sent him off while I filled the feeders. I lost sight of him in seconds as he vanished into the fog. While he did his outrun, I filled the bunks, and then turned to see about half the calves coming to feed.

A little encouragement with a "walk up" to my still invisible dog out there with about a dozen invisible calves, resulted in those calves appearing out of the fog and him covering them, keeping the stragglers with the group, and bringing them quietly and calmly to the feeders.

I told him, "that'll do, good dog" and headed home with him, to get changed and off to work. His good job made my day as I couldn't have managed without him. This is the same dog that fetched a couple dozen mature cows to me the day before so I could check them over.

I love my dogs as much as anybody here (and I am sure everyone here loves their dogs just as much as I do), they sleep in my bedroom (and some chose to sleep on my bed when they wish and are welcome), and I honestly would keep them all even if they didn't work on the farm - but nothing can take the place of a dog that is a partner in a job that needs to be done, or the breeding that produced a dog that can do the job.

I thank all the good breeders who contributed to the development and will contribute to the future of the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog. Now, evening chores await my good dogs and me...

Once in another lifetime, I used to run my Border Collie in AKC but about 9 yrs ago, I was turned on to ISDS trial. The USBCHA folks were super kind to me and soon I moved out from the city, dropped the yuppies life and (and also have a day job) have over 80 sheep, cattle etc and have numerous Border Collies. All help doing chores and each vie for the coveted spot near the gate to be the chosen one.

Life has changed greatly for me and my first Border Collie (from a BYB) is a pet. She honestly tried to help but would often give me a look of ??? and then give it her all. No outrun and seriously tight but could stop a charging ram. She has some instinct but not enough. We love her for what she is. Shiro is 14 now and slow but has the heart of a lion

Life has changed for us, we have gone from being a yuppie couple to sheep farmer selling naturally grown lamb to Yuppies. None of this would be possible without the use of our dogs.

One example, I sent Tess to get the sheep out of the far field this spring. The grass was to my waist in some spots. The sheep came thundering out of the grass but no Tess. I call and call her but no Tess. I get worried and run up the field..20 acres of waist high grass. I go up about 300 yard and see Tess bouncing up and down as if to get my attention. I call her and she does not move. I run over to her, expecting the worse.

She was hovering over a weak lamb that fell into a gully and could not get up. The ewe had left her weak lamb and went with the flock. I picked up the lamb and Tess walked beside me. I brought the lamb back to the mom but she rejected it, maybe because it was weak. The lamb would have died if Tess had left it but she, the ever so obedient was disobedient and refused to come to me but instead made me go to her. She saved the lambs life. Danny boy was rejected by her mother so became a bottle lamb.


How many dogs do you know that will do that? It took hundreds of years to make Tess do what she did...it will take only a few to bred it out of them

Diane

i could use want or need WHATEVER, its just terminolgy!
There is a reason why most people need/want have a sports breed BC to do sports with in the UK & thats because they think they have the best dog for the job!Which is UP TO THEM. These dogs ARE COLLIES so just GET OVER IT! I find you very patornising & pedantic & VERY insulting.