Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Discussions

Thanks for sharing a lot of interesting information about your dogs. They are beautiful creatures and those pictures with your dogs and your friends and family just made my heart melt! I would love to own one of these gorgeous dogs one day but i dont think I would until the rules regarding them change :-(
Looking forward to seeing many more picture and stories about your dogs. Especially like the swimmign pool pics and the one of the cheky dog stealing the cake off the table!

Beautiful dogs.
I've said all I wanted to say and quite frankly can't be bothered to keep repeating myself.
My concern is the welfare of your breed. it's not my chosen breed and wouldn't ever be. I'm still concerned for their welfare and have to say question why getting them over here is that important when you know they'll be abused?
Anyway, it is at best, unlikely at the moment and to be honest, my view is fairly irrelevant. As I say, my concern is your breeds welfare, I don't want to come across them being abused...
As I say beautiful dogs.

Hi Lucky Star,
CSWs do not have a special
food requirements, you can feed everything from raw diet to dry dog food

Hi. My name is Per Olav. I'm from Norway and like the other CSW owners new to this forum. By assistance of some fellow CSW owners I've managed to publish a gallery showing the versatility of the breed. Please enjoy http://tinyurl.com/rtwkf
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Per Olav

WOW their amaizing pics from all of you & such gorgious dogs.

the sleigh ride is amazing

Just my 5 cents please

http://tinyurl.com/oavxq http://tinyurl.com/n8rzf
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Per Olav

well that is a fascinating read and backs up everything that Gnasher put up.
Wonder what DEFRA will do about it now - ban all German Shepherds?
Just goes to show how silly it all is.

Hi Per, welcome to Dogsey!

The second link you have posted; excepts from Geo Horowitz book. You have unfortunately cropped off a very significant paragraph that preceded your piece. I will quote here -

"This brings us to the very important question as to whether there have ever been crossings between wolves and Alsatians. I may say at once that that is a rather difficult question to answer, for the simple reason that the whole matter is somewhat obscure; which is not to be wondered at if we remember that, even if such crossings were had recourse to, they took place at a time when there did not exist any control over the breeding of Alsatians."

Geo Horowitz. The Alsatian Wolf-Dog, page 9. "Our Dogs" Publishing Co Ltd. [sorry no date of publication on my copy but 1924?]

And I will repost my earlier quote from Dr Willis in reply to the text in Gnashers post which appears to be taken from the same website as your first link.


"The Sieger of 1900 and 1901 was Hektor v Scwaben SZ 13 who was a son of Horand v Grafrath out of the bitch Mores Plieningen SZ 159. She was a softish-eared bitch born in 1984 and according to Horowitz, (1924) had wolf ancestry. He cited Otto Rahm of the Wohlden kennels in Switzerland as claiming that this bich was the result of mating a male wolf to a shepherd bitch. Horowitz then cites Von Stephanitz (1903) to the effect that the wolf cross was of earlier vintage and it was the great-grandsire of Mores which was a wolf/dog cross having been born in Stuttgart zoo in 1881. Later, Von Sephanitz (1923) denied this report and in 1927 he expanded on the subject in an attempt to denigrate the writings of a Belgian author (L. Huyghebaert) who had suggested that the GSD stemmed from wolf crossing. Accoring to Von Stephanitz (1927) the wolf cross in Stuttgart zoo had occurred but had no connection with Mores Pleiningen. Bearing in mind the inaccuracies of pedigrees at that time and the ability of breeders to change dogs’ names, it is doubful if any early authorities could be dogmatic about any pedigrees."

Malcolm B Willis (1991) The German Shepherd Dog, A genetic History of the Breed - page 4

There are other references to wolf blood in the GSD but none supporting the notion that Horand was 1/4 wolf. I have a copy of Von Stephanitz book and there is no mention of this in his appraisal of Horand. Horand, as far as is known, was of unknown parentage.

But really this is all merely academic now that we have modern DNA tecniques to reveal the genetic past of our breeds. Research in mtDNA (maternal) and Y chromosome (paternal) has shown that the GSD is no closer to the wolf than many other breeds.

[repeat of my comments post #68]

It seems to me that there is no proof that there was ever wolf in a German Shepherd. It also seems that IF there ever was (which is massively debatable) it was before shepherds were even properly recognised as a 'breed' or had a 'breed ' standard.
In the case of CSW however, the most recent wolf X was 1983 (posted by someone on this thread)...think it makes the German shepherd debate irrelevant doesn't it???

Great job, Per Olav!

Hmm. And considering the reactions here at the forum, don´t you think that it is publicly more acceptable if von Stephanitz says, Horand is of uknown parentage, than if he admits clearly, that there is wolf in it?

Uknown parentage does not mean, there isn´t wolf in there. It only states, than in fact they do not know (or pretend not to know), who his parents are. Strange,no?
I mean, would you buy a dog to start a breed, and not ask about his parents? Would not you want to see at least his mother? Common!
But as usual, somehow it makes people more happy to think, that his parents were total mongrels, than to accept the fact there was wolf. What a strange world!

LOL! Yes there is and we just read it. But you won´t believe it, because you do not want to. Because it would change your safe world with hundreds of GSD´s running around you No sorry, do not take it as offence, but .. does ever exist something, that would convince you?

And by the way, what does it mean "properly recognised as a breed?" Is it when it is recognised in the country of origin, or is it FCI recognition? Because, if you mean FCI, then I also could say that,"The standard of Czechoslovakian wolfdog was approved in Helsinki in June 13, 1989 and under number 332 was issued by secretariat of FCI in April 28, 1994. Ing.Karel Hartl and Jindrich Jedlicka, Ceskoslovensky vlcak, book printed 1996."
Which would mean, that any wolf added to the breed was also added before "proper recognition" of the breed or official standard. ;-)

No, it does not.

Some more photos to share. Not the greatest quality this time, my scanner is quite bad. :-( Sometimes the kid and both dogs were all inside the old bathtube at the same time, but unfortunatelly we did not manage to capture that

Mirka wolf, the idea of their being wolf in a german shepherd over a hundred years ago does not damage my perception of the breed...it is a breed I know and love.

I totally understand why feelings run high about this breed, as with any breed, but I fail to see the relevance of german shepherds to any discussion about them, sorry. There is no PROOF of wolf in the shepherds and as Pod has said, even genetics and studies of DNA have shown it to be as likely as it is in a lot of other breeds. There is proof of recent (being of a certain age I do define 1983 as recent...) wolf in this breed. It makes it entirely different.

Your dogs are beautiful.
So are wolves.

As I've said... I am not anti wolfdog.
My concern for them is the cruelty they will suffer at the hands of idiots.
I participated in the german shepherd debate on here as I think it's irrelevant to be honest, you cannot compare the 2 breeds.

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are totally against you and your dogs. Blimey. No I don't think they should be introduced here for reasons I've stated soooo many times and yes I question the ethics of breeding domestic dogs with wolves. Doesn't make me think your dogs are some sort of monster. Doesn't make me deluded about their temprament...I've never actually commented on temprament let alone question it.

What is so wrong about me being concerned about your breeds welfare????

Hello pod and thanks for welcoming me to this group .

As a newbie I prefer to watch the discussions for a while before posting. My intention was purely to add the reference of the information posted by Gnasher. I'd like, however, to share another piece of information written by the same author, the american ethologist Mrs Dresselhaus: http://tinyurl.com/75th6
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Per Olav

Well I did not say anywhere, that you think about CSW´s as monsters, neither that you question their temperament.

And yes, I understand that you are concerned about welfare of our breed. If everyone was so concerned about welfare of our breed, it would be great. Or maybe there would be no wolfdogs at all.

I would not want any CSW to go to UK under current DEFRA rules. That would destroy any breed and every normal dog, to be kept and live like DEFRA requires for CSW´s. However, my point is to show (and keep showing) that CSW´s are not wolf-hybrids, but normal dogs (FCI registered breed, bla bla). Only if people are correctly informed, then there is no room for rumours, false expectations and money-makers.

From my own point of view, owning a relativley new breed and much newer than the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog I feel that the true focus on these dogs is not about the dogs themselves but 'time'.

Ok so if there was any wolf in the GSD it doesn't matter now.

But the last wolf introduction to the Czechoslovaikian Wolfdog being nearly at least 23yrs ago is to close for comfort for some, and from what I gather the Saarloos Wolfhond being almost double that (1963) with it's origins to the 1920's...but still not far enough away (heck not that much younger than the GSD in it's origins).

The GSD suffered alot of misconception in recent decades but as time goes on they are more understood. Maybe this breed will get there also but in the meantime we can't hide them because people arn't ready and then wheel them out when they become 'ok'.

What makes a breed 'ok' in many peoples eyes is if it has at least over 100yrs plus of history behind it and nothing else matters. No scrutiny of how they developed, at most a keen interest in the breeds history when it is detailed and in many cases they are extremely undetailed...and no picking apart of how it was all achieved, it just happened, to late to ask questions and we just accept the whole process.

Do we have a healthy breed with a good temperament with a detailed (maybe to much for it's own good) history here, yes. For me nothing else comes into it. To me they wont be any better in 100 yrs time as they are now but maybe for some we can then talk about them as a well known breed of dog, no different to any other? Maybe even introduce them here

See it's all down to time...maybe people were having similar conversations about the GSD a few decades into it's breeding but now 'it doesn't matter'. Remember the GSD isn't that old of a breed it's self (late 1800's) That to me is what I think about when the conversation turns this route and it's a little hypocritical?

Not aimed at anyone in particular what so ever but just my thoughts.

I totally agree. And in in conjunction with the text in bold I have thought along those lines myself...Where does protection of the breed cross over into totally impeding it's progress...Because if every country that has recognised the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog decided not to so as to 'protect' it...It wouldn't really hardly exist?

I understand that you are concerned about welfare of our breed. If everyone was so concerned about welfare of our breed, it would be great. Or maybe there would be no wolfdogs at all.

I would not want any CSW to go to UK under current DEFRA rules. That would destroy any breed and every normal dog, to be kept and live like DEFRA requires for CSW´s. However, my point is to show (and keep showing) that CSW´s are not wolf-hybrids, but normal dogs (FCI registered breed, bla bla). Only if people are correctly informed, then there is no room for rumours, false expectations and money-makers.


LS:

Exactly! Education is all! So what is the way forward; how do we inform people? I also do not want to see these dogs ending up put to sleep or in the pound because people have misconceptions and do not know how to live with these dogs.

Incidentally this is not related to you coming here on holiday with your dogs -I for one would love to see/meet them!!! Can't understand why it is not allowed. You would be great ambassadors.

I can’t find anywhere that von Stephanitz has actually said that (though I haven’t read the whole book!) but knowing Dr Willis, I will rely on him having thoroughly researched this subject before putting pen to paper, as he does with all of his writings.

Not only is Dr Willis a canine geneticist of world renown, he is also a specialist breeder (formerly), owner, judge, historian and author on the GSD. I for one would not presume to doubt his word, particularly on this, his area of specialist knowledge. He is of the opinion that the wolf content is based on unfounded rumour.

Of course. You could say this of virtually any dog with continental or Asian origins.

Remember that this was over a century ago. I don’t think the ethics and beliefs of modern day breeders can be held as a guideline to what von S had in mind when he created the breed. And considering Darwin’s groundbreaking book “The Origin of the Species” had been in publication only a few decades, the idea of heredity was nothing more than a controversial theory.

But to answer your question, assuming it wasn’t completely rhetorical ....yes, perhaps surprisingly, I would buy a dog of unknown parentage to start a breed. I would prefer to see the parents of course but if I were considering founding my breed on say the Border Collie, and given the choice between a dog of unknown parentage, who was a skilled worker with form to suit his function together with suitable temperament and good health......and a Border Collie of show breeding with a fluffy coat and a pedigree as-long-as-your-arm, I’m sorry, no contest!

And I would like to think that perhaps this is what von Stephanitz saw in Horand when he selected dogs from the landrace shepherd dogs that were from stock actually out in the field performing the job they were bred for.

Again the all important piece of information on the DNA aspect of this has been ignored. Maternal line studies in mtDNA have placed the GSD in a cluster with mastiff breeds in one study and in another study sharing a haplotype with the wolf and a diverse collection of breeds including the Golden Retriever, Bulldog, Toy Poodle and Mexican Hairless. Paternal line studies on the Y chromosome indicate breeds in FCI group 5 (spitz and primitive types) are closer to wolves than other breeds.

If there had been wolf blood introduced as recently as 100ya, it would have shown in these studies. Surely now the GSD/wolfdog argument, though interesting, becomes redundant?

Mirka, we have seen repeated comments on this thread referring to “red riding hood” and others which appear to be directed at the belief that the wolf (and wolfdogs) are somewhat savage and untrustworthy. I know there is a historical element to this. The wolf was truly a feared and persecuted species in the past, but times have changed and I believe the wolf now mostly holds the respect he deserves and has more of a romantic image in the eye of the general public and particularly the dog owning public.

The comments are unnecessary. Posters on this thread, and particularly Ailsa, have made it clear that their only objection to wolfdogs being allowed in the UK is on the grounds of the dog's welfare.