Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Discussions

What a wonderful story you have to tell Rona, thanks for sharing.

Hi Gnasher

Not sure if you have read the previous posts on the GSD but it seems the only evidence put forward for this breed to be called a wolfdog is the fact that one research paper reported the finding of one haplotype common to the wolf and some breeds of dog including the GSD.

This haplotype was found in a diverse group of breeds with the wolf addition essentially being before the breeds' divergence so not really in a time frame that would warrant the label 'wolfdog' today. On this evidence, the GSD is no more a wolfdog than the Bulldog, Golden Retriever, or Toy Poddle is.

Other research papers have reported the GSD to be grouped with mastiff type breeds as far as wolf relatedness is concerned, with the spitz and primitive types showing closest relation.

If you have any evidence to back up your claims, I'd be very interested.

I wonder why the GSD was originally called The German Wolfdog? Could it possibly be because it was bred from the wolf I wonder? I apologise for the sarcasm, but ... !


Captain Von Stephanitz, of the German infantry, bought sheep-herding dogs (many of them field trial winners) from all over Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and bred them together to create his 'ultimate service dog'. He started a registry and stud book. His favorite dog, Hektor, he gave the first # (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to every decent bitch around, and all the dogs originally imported to America were proudly traced back to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media sensationalized every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine with the word 'wolf' in it. The name was eventually changed back to GSD. In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" in which he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. Fang@howling.com has a pricey (about $350) original and more may(?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read sanitized) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.

Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.)


I think the above italicised text says it all.

As interesting as this is ( and i'm not being sarcastic) I'm wondering what text you are quoting from please????

My thoughts exactly! Gnasher, will you please give references.

It is very interesting isn't it. It was my husband, who although not a geneticist, is a medical scientist with a particular interest in zoology and specialising in mammalian physiology who researched the whole subject of so-called wolfdogs. He is actually interested in purchasing a czech wolfdog or a sarloos, both of which are, of course, crazily and illogically not allowed to be owned as pets in this country. The nearest we can get is to own a husky/mal/gsd cross, which we indeed do. I am not sure whether the passage comes from a scientific paper, a magazine article, or whether he wrote it himself, but being a scientist he is not going to be fooled by any old mumbo jumbo.

Knowing him (only too well!) he will doubtless have many links to scientific papers which I will let you have.

The passage is definitely not written in the style of a scientific paper. You must though have some idea of where you copied it from?

Meanwhile, I quote Malcolm Willis -

"The Sieger of 1900 and 1901 was Hektor v Scwaben SZ 13 who was a son of Horand v Grafrath out of the bitch Mores Plieningen SZ 159. She was a softish-eared bitch born in 1984 and according to Horowitz, (1924) had wolf ancestry. He cited Otto Rahm of the Wohlden kennels in Switzerland as claiming that this bich was the result of mating a male wolf to a shepherd bitch. Horowitz then cites Von Stephanitz (1903) to the effect that the wolf cross was of earlier vintage and it was the great-grandsire of Mores which was a wolf/dog cross having been born in Stuttgart zoo in 1881. Later, Von Sephanitz (1923) denied this report and in 1927 he expanded on the subject in an attempt to denigrate the writings of a Belgian author (L. Huyghebaert) who had suggested that the GSD stemmed from wolf crossing. Accoring to Von Stephanitz (1927) the wolf cross in Stuttgart zoo had occurred but had no connection with Mores Pleiningen. Bearing in mind the inaccuracies of pedigrees at that time and the ability of breeders to change dogs’ names, it is doubful if any early authorities could be dogmatic about any pedigrees."

Malcolm B Willis (1991) The German Shepherd Dog, A genetic History of the Breed - page 4


As you can see Gnasher, there are inaccuracies in the passage you quote. The author seems to be confused about where the supposed wolf cross is in the pedigree. But really, your quote is meaningless without references.

There are other references to wolf blood in the GSD but none supporting the notion that Horand was 1/4 wolf. I have a copy of Von Stephanitz book and there is no mention of this in his appraisal of Horand. Horand, as far as is known, was of unknown parentage.

But really this is all merely academic now that we have modern DNA tecniques to reveal the genetic past of our breeds. Research in mtDNA (maternal) and Y chromosome (paternal) has shown that the GSD is no closer to the wolf than many other breeds.

The fact of the matter is that there is some controversy as to the origins of the GSD. I will not go into all the details - there is an interesting article on the matter written by Ann Dresselhaus unfortunately all the references cited therein are well nigh impossible to track down, and as has been pointed out

So - don't rely on the old pedigrees too much though do note - that works both ways, just because no wolf is found there doesn't mean there isn't any.

I do however have an intellectual experiment to propose to you all. Let us create a virtual race - we shall call it the Dogsey for the sake of argument. If the Dogsey at it's creation had a single wolf which was involved in the breeding program - would that mean that now 25 generations down the line (or more) Dogsey would be a wolfdog, or not?

(To help in the discussion at this stage I cannot help but point out an interesting fact - the UK is the ONLY country in the world which legislates that any amount of wolf content in an animals makes him wild, and only for the case of wolves. For other animals the UK takes the stance that 5 generations away from the wild animal is sufficient for domestication, and all other legislatures with similar requirements (Sweden, Australia, Canada etc) also follow the 5 generation rule for determining the domestication of dogs)

Share your thoughs - Dogsey wolfdog or not?

You need to be more specific - was the wolf used just once in the first cross and then never again? Therefore 24 generations away from the breed?

Are you also saying that the last time 'wild blood' (wolf) was used is at least 24 generations away from the wolfdogs you have today?

I'm just interested in this thread hence I keep looking into it

For the record I am not for, or against Wolfdogs - if there was a chance the ban was to be lifted I would primarily be concerned with the safety aspect.

Personally I don't believe they are in the same league as bull-breeds for when it comes to the choice of 'macho men' - I think many would see them more as 'fluffy' 'pets' as opposed to 'hard' looking dogs. In addition, from what I have read of them they don't have the characteristics that such types go for - which I think is a good thing.

This is a lovely breed but I am pleased it isn't allowed in the UK as it would be exploited by the moneymaking con artists.

I've met a good few in Europe & been very impressed by them

Not going to get into the debate agin on the GSD/Wolf subject as the"expert"quoted as being an authority on the matter is far from being an expert(& I don't mean Malcolm who I know very well)

You'll have to forgive me - I'm suffering from severe PTSD and anxiety and am on anti depressants and beta blockers, so the old brain doesn't tick too well. The name Ann Dresselhaus (not sure about my spelling, but you will know who I mean!) rings a bell. I don't know where I got the article from, it is just something that I saved in Word because it wasn't too scientific. OH has some horrendously complicated researches which I can't begin to understand.

The point I am trying to make here is that ALL dogs are more than 1% wolf, so DEFRA's ruling is absolutely totally ridiculous. I only brought the GSD into the debate just to show how bloody stupid the ruling is - because they are much higher percentage than most other breeds and, being the most popular breed in this country and probably the world, i thought it would be interesting. You only have to LOOK at a GSD to see its very high wolf content - my husband says that they are closer to 80% wolf, not the 20% I thought. You only have to LOOK at a siberian husky, or a malamute, to see there's a lot of recent wolf in there, same goes for the maremma, the pyrannean mountain dog, the japanese akita. Is DEFRA going to round up all these breeds and impound them? It is just absolutely ridiculous. Through mitochondrial DNA (spelling again - sorry!), it has been proved that ALL modern dog irrespective of breed is descended from 3 female wolves, so it makes a mockery of the whole thing quite frankly.

I just don't understand why not this breed then and ok to all the others the KC have recognised...They all fall victim to idiots. People get Huskies and Mals cuz they want a 'snow dog' they think they can be different to everyone else and can let theirs off the lead and they will be easy to train and find they are too much for them that's why the good breeders seem to be really protective of where their pups go and I'm hoping if the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos Wolfdogs were allowed that this would be the case with them...Of course unfortunatly you will always get less then ideal situtaions but that happens in all breeds in all countries.

As it's been said, these dogs do not seem to posses the traits that a 'hard' man would look for.

Then surely this should be the focus...DEFRA and The KC surely should only be interested in stability of temprement.

Again Gnasher you are making statements with no backup. What evidence does your husband have? If “the look” is what you base this on, what wolf content has your Utonagan?

I think the important point you are missing is that the DEFRA rules are basing this 1%, on addition of new wolf blood to the already domesticated dog. It is now generally (though not exclusively*) accepted by the scientific community that the domestic dog did descend 100% from the wolf. So yes, this does mean that the dog is 100% wolf blood, but this doesn’t mean that all the genes in the modern dog have occurred, or do occur in the wolf.

Mutations, which will have happened spontaneously throughout the >14k year history of domestication are mostly responsible for the phenotypic changes we see in our dogs and the most obvious ones, which can't have already been present in the wolf by virtue of their mode of inheritance are; achondroplasia, brachycephalia, hairlessness and merle coat pattern. These single gene traits represent major changes in the phenotype, and each one alone, enough to make the dog unviable as a wild animal. Now when we consider that most genetic changes that have occurred are said to be associated with behavioural traits, it indicates just how different dogs and wolves really are.

Genetic drift, powered by rigorous selection, will be responsible for other, more subtle changes and because of the timeframe involved, will be the only means open to breeders of modern day wolfdogs to shape the temperament of their breed. By doing this they are selecting behaviour which is more likely to be based on the GSD genes rather than the wolf's so obviously the less wolf % in the foundation stock, the quicker this will be accomplished.

DEFRA's stipulation of <1% puts the limit at one wolf addition removed by 7 generations, which does seem a bit draconian I agree. If it could be proven that these breeds generally have a temperament far enough removed from the timid, unpredictable nature of the wolf, I would gladly welcome them to the UK.

* http://www.canineworld.com/ngsdcs/O...anice Koler-Matznick, wolf dog domestication"

Well, we agree on something Pod! I will I promise be more scientific - I just can't do it at the moment. Returned to work today for the first time in a couple of weeks after being signed off, and it didn't go too well, so forgive me, I am not procrastinating, I'm just to bloody knackered to delve into OH's researches, but believe me he's got about 3 lever arch files of heavy scientific papers - I know because I have to dust the damn things!

sorry Mys I don't agree with the 'it happens to other breeds anyway so why not let this breed in?' attitude. Knowing dogs could suffer...why put them in that situation? I just do not understand it.
No, these dogs would not instantly seem the kind hard men would go for...until they hear the name and hear it has wolf in it...then it seems like owning a part wild animal is appealing. BEFORE anyone jumps down my throat, I'm putting their possible words here not mine, I know they are not part wild animal. My point is not everyone will know that. Believe me when I say there are people out there who would want these dogs because of the word 'wolf' in their names. There are people out there who would abuse them.I just don't get how you can adopt a 'well it goes on anyway so why not to these dogs' attitude. It is great to love and admire a breed but to then introduce it to a place where you know it will be abused. Sorry don't get it.
As for GSD wolf content, I think we are talking, given the dates thrown out, of wolf content (alleged wolf content at least) which was put into the breed (allegedly) about 120 years ago (in order for the dog in question to be allegedly a quarter wolf). I think, that's probably distant enough for most people. (Especially snce it's all alleged and hearsay anyway...)
As for the wolfdogs...can anyone tell me when the last wolf x breeding was done in the breed? I know it was initially done in the 20's and again for sure in the 40's, but has there been more recent wolf 'top ups' if you like??? I think the reason some people (perhaps DEFRA included) have problems with these breeds is that noone is saying for sure, when the last wolf X breeding was done in the breed.
From what has been said about the breed they certainly appear to have more of a wolf like temperament than say...a GSD;-) ...with their shy natures etc, so is that a charactersitic that is sought after and bred in???? (Genuinely interested there).
A million apologies for going on, I really am interested...which is why I keep bowing out...only to pop up again a couple of days later.
I would also like to reiterate...they are beautiful dogs....

Can I ask a slightly different question? How do 'conventional' dogs react to wolf dogs?

Sorry Gnasher, didn't mean to be a pain. Hope things improves for you

Ok, I’ll try to answer most of these questions ;-)

For the Czechoslovakian wolfdog there have been five lines created, originally by crossing a GSD with a wolf (the offspring of those crosses where then again crossed with GSD etc), the crosses took place in 1958, 1960, 1968, 1972 and 1983. Thus the closest line to the wolf of the CSW dates to 1983, the pups being born today into that line are 7 or 8 generations removed from their forefathers, though most CSW are even farther removed. For more information on the history of the breed I recommend this article.

Saarloos wolfdogs are older, the first crosses taking place in 1932, but I cannot say when the last lines were established.

I think you have a very important misconception – the breed standard for CSW states:

Shyness in a CSW is a fault – and it can be a disqualifying fault. It is certainly not something that is bred for. (That is one of the main differences between the CSW and the Saarloos btw)

That really at the end of the day depends on the individual dog I’m afraid, it is hard to make generic statements. For instance, in our training club there is this border collie who apparently was very excited and aggressive towards our dogs. As soon as we got within 20 meters of that dog she would bark uncontrollably pull on the leash, growl, bar her teeth. However – further inspection (and intervention from a couple of experienced trainers) showed that the border collie had no particular problem with the wolfdogs – if a trainer (any trainer) took her and came close to us she would be meek and friendly. The problem was that the owner of the border collie was afraid of our dogs, and clearly showed her fear – her dog reacted to that by guarding against what she perceived as danger. It may be an anecdote but it does illustrate a point – more often the behaviour of a dog is determined by the owner rather than the breed to which it belongs. (Not entirely surprisingly though, our dogs don’t look too kindly upon border collies these days, though if properly introduced they can get along well)

Again, I cannot help but reiterate – the UK is not the cesspit of the world when it comes to dog owners and breeders. There is a good share of bad breeders and owners here on the continent as well. There is no increased risk from them being in the UK on this matter. To put it simply – the moneymaking con artist at the end of your street is no worse (on average) than the moneymaking con artist at the end of my street. I am somewhat surprised, and a little disappointed to hear this same statement repeated over and over from various sources. And incidentally for the record – those very same moneymaking con artists make far more money and con far more people when something is banned or prohibited than when it is permitted and accurate information is widely available on the wolfdogs to all.

An interesting point which you bring up and one which deserves some discussion. First, wolfdogs as a general rule of thumb don’t end up too often in rescues – that’s partly because of the work of wolfdog.org, (we strive to replace any dogs which need a new home – and we have some 70-80% of all CSW registered, so we know about most of the trouble) The reasons why people get rid of the dogs? The typical ones – Oh I’m moving and cannot take the dog, oh I didn’t think the dog would need so much attention, cost so much money, be such a hassle… You’ve heard them all before. Sometimes, it has to do with the tragedies of life (I do know for instance of a case when a wolfdog owner had a very severe car accident and was left in a coma – the wolfdog needed to be replaced for instance) It doesn’t happen too often but it does happen. One particularity is that some people return young dogs (3-6 months) claiming that the wolfdog is aggressive. In fact such young wolfdogs are generally anything but aggressive (they tend to be scandalously submissive if you ask me) but they do love to nip at anything and everything that moves. They need to be taught what they can and cannot chew on (that toy bone is fine, my hand is not) and unfortunately not everyone is successful in doing so.

Rona – your story is really fantastic. It’s the first time I hear about it too!

I would like to make a particular point about the character of the CSW – the CSW was bred as and remains essentially a working dog. That is not to say that every individual CSW is used for work, like many other working breeds many of them are pets, but they love to work and they really can be good at it, if they set their minds to it. Working with them can be tricky at first – essentially they will only respond to positive reinforcement techniques, and they want real rewards (ie food) (every single person who’s tried clicker training on a CSW has failed).

When adequately trained they really live up to their reputation as versatile dogs – CSW are used as rescue dogs, they are used in canis therapy, as hunting dogs, they have been known to be trained for herding (though I don’t know of anyone who actually uses them to herd – they can do it) they are reputed to make great leaders of mushing teams (though a full team of CSW is rare, actually I’ve never heard of one) of course they have been (and still are) used in the armed forces and positively excel at tracking. The one thing which I’ve never heard a CSW being used for is as a guide dog (however – originally Saarloos wolfdogs were bred to be guidedogs, this though is no longer the case). Bah I could spend ages talking about wolfdog training – not because I’m any good at it mind you, but rather because I’ve spent a fair bit of time trying to get there.

Anyhow, other duties call, hope that answers most of your questions.

(I don’t forget you Azz, but I leave the conjectures what is and is not a wolfdog for another post)

What a brilliant post, thouroughly enjoyed reading that.

I've always loved wolves and their wolf dog/look a like counter parts.

Now I know so much more about wolf dogs.

Thank you very much!