Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Discussions

I was going to say just that - many of the NIs I've seen resemble these lovely wolfdogs .

I'm only an owner so not a Utonagan expert but many of their traits sound similar: intelligence, stubborness, not biting/guard dogs, trainable but independent ...

Observing my own dog he is highly intelligent but incredibly stubborn. He loves people and does not guard. Nor does he bark at knocks at the door or bite. He doesn't much like other male dogs. He climbs the walls if he doesn't get his exercise and loves to run (the husky in him?). He is highly prey driven and will kill and eat animals such as rabbits etc. Utonagan seem adept at opening fridges and food drawers and can be amazing escape artists. My lad loves to dig holes and chew. I haven't found anything yet that he is afraid of - he was initially afraid of fireworks as a pup (a bad experience - my fault in trying to socialise him with them, idiot that I am ) but he is terribly curious and now barks to be let out to get the fireworks. He is unbelievably nosy, curious, into everything and hates to be left alone. He is part of the family and is not the sort of dog to have if you intend to work all day and leave him home alone. He is wonderful with children, if a little boisterous and rough but that is exuberance, rather than anything unwanted. He is very affectionate and astute and senses if you're down but yet he can be quite independent when out on walks. He is happy to be handled while eating, even if it is a bone - although this might be due to training. He has excellent recall if there is nothing about that he considers more interesting and unfortunately dominating other dogs - to him - is more interesting than even the tastiest treats. He has a zest for life that leaves me breathless. He is a sensitive soul and very forgiving of my frequent stupidity in not understanding him too well. He bounces back, no matter what is thrown at him.

Healthwise HD and cataracts have been seen in Utonagan, as well as monorchidism (sp?). Epilepsy is rare but unfortunately my lad has been diagnosed with it. I believe breeding programmes are in place to try to phase these out.

A natural, raw diet seems to suit these dogs.

There is quite a variation amongst the Utonagan with respect to looks - someone else (Tawney?) would be able to give you a more informative picture as I haven't been around the breed that long.

The Utonagan are similar to the beautiful Northern Inuit in many ways. Years ago they were all Northern Inuit but after a parting of the ways by some breeders, the Utonagan was developed along a different path and so they are now different but remain closely linked and usually friendly (the owners). Sorry about MY English but I am very tired with a cranky baby tonight so not doing too well at stringing a sentence together .

Please - Ute owners, do correct me if I hvenot represented the breed in any way. I am only going by my Loki who, as we all know, has his own unique ways. Mischief being the chief one I think, hence his name!

There are some fascinating dogs on here and the posts are informative and interesting. Thank you, I've learnt a lot about these beautiful dogs.

To answer the above, these dogs may not like to bite,and may be good escape artists, but stick a chain round their neck in a garage or yard and they will find it difficult. I'm sorry but saying they'll just escape from being badly treated isn't doesn't make it okay, because they probably wouldn't be able to.
I'm sure they are magnificent, surely then you would want to protect them?

the variation in looks is because some people are now favouring shorter haired dogs, the dogs that were originally from Eddie Harrison were long haired with a thick undercoat and I have tried to stay true to the type she bred. In the litter my 2 came from the mother was a rough (long) haired and the father a short haired, so we had a mixture of types in the litter. Funnily enough, in the first litter from the same parents there are ones that are near doubles of both my 2, so they have bred true to type.
What you say about their temperament is absolutely true LS, they are loyal, affectionate and have big hearts. My 2 are useless at retrieval, will eagerly chase the ball, sniff at it and then go off and play somewhere else, leaving me to 'fetch' the ball!!!!
I am enjoying training them, they do really funny things and it is a joy to be with them and be associated with them.

First my apologies, I hope you don’t mind multiple postings to reply to multiple interventions by others – but I find it tends to keep things simpler.

The main point of my argument is that the CSW is to be found throughout Europe, and that what you fear Ailsa, that the wolfdogs will be misused and mistreated is simply not a widespread phenomenon for now. I honestly do not believe that in the UK dogs are treated (on average) worse than they are in the rest of the world (in fact I was under the impression that the opposite was true) so I admit at being baffled at your comments. Do you really think people over there are so terribly cruel to dogs that the mere act of introducing a breed to the UK condemns that breed to suffering and cruelty?

It may be stating the obvious, but of course ill treating dogs is not something that is “ok”. If someone for a moment believes that because I said that wolfdogs tend to escape from places where they are not wanted I am in some way encouraging people to mistreat them – then they are wrong. That was never my intent and I will never get tired of saying it – don’t mistreat a dog. Ever.

Dharkwolf, I didn't think for a moment that you thought that mistreating dogs was okay. Yes the UK is supposed to be a nation of animal lovers, and in general it is...BUT there are pockets of animal abuse and cruelty. The incidences of cruelty in the UK rose again last year.
I am saying that the wolfdog, because of its name and the incorrect associations it summons up, will atrract the wrong sort of owner (as well as the perfect sort of owners for them like many of the people in here!) They will be subjected to cruelty and poor breeding. Yes, I do think that introducing the breed will subject it to mistreatment and cruelty amongst some sections of society. Totally. I think it would be naive to not see that. If there is a risk...why introduce it?
I do also think it's all a bit pie in the sky as it would seem it is unlikely they will be introduced.
If they ever are, I hope my assumptions about some of the people they will appeal to are totally wrong.
Out of interest, are their breed rescues in place for wolfdogs in Europe and if so, what are the reasons for them being in rescue? (Just totally out of interest).
Again thanks for your posts...a very interesting thread this and beautiful dogs.

When I was looking to buy my dog I wanted the 'look of the wolf', I have to say your dogs are magnificent and look so healthy.
I own Northern Inuits and just love them to bits. These are a few pictures Ive found at random so you have an idea of what we look like.





We even have fundays for our dogs ;-)


Hope you like them as much as we do. ;-)

This is along the lines of what I am thinking. I know there are alot of imbeciles residing in the UK but this can't be the reason for these breeds to not be allowed in this country.

What I hope is that if the day comes when the Czechoslovakian and or Saarloos Wolfdog are allowed as a breed is that the first breeders to bring them here will be very protective of the breed...Because of the long fight to get to that point I'm sure that would be the case.

Azz, many thanks for your quote from the DEFRA document. I was in fact already aware of it, and have discussed it with some people.

There is a statement in particular

Which I am surprised so few people have ever reacted to. After all – it has been demonstrated that all dogs descend from the wolf, therefore according to that statement, all dogs, be they wolfdogs, poodles or terriers, are covered by the Dangerous and Wild Animals act, and should therefore be subject to its rather draconian provisions.

Naturally that’s nonsense, and it is not how the law is applied, but it’s worth taking a closer look at things.

The DWA is a piece of legislation which is set to serve fulfil an important role – namely that of protecting the population from wild animals. It basically lays down a list of species and says those species are too dangerous to be kept as pets therefore a particular set of provisions will apply to them. The basis of the legislation is therefore a definition of species and which species are acceptable and which are not.

It’s not a bad criteria, and it works in 99% of all cases.

But it breaks down when two members of a given species (I, like many other scientists believe that wolves and dogs belong to the same species) are classed into two different groups – that which is allowable and that which is not.

The main concern, as was very aptly pointed out by Azz, is the wildness of the animal. An animal with wild behaviour may be unpredictable, and is therefore potentially dangerous. People should be protected from such animals.

The problem is that there is no simple method of measuring “behaviour”. Therefore as a surrogate, DEFRA has turned to wolf content – at first glance not an unreasonable choice as it seems to fit in well with all the other cases within the DWA where we refer to species.

Unfortunately the problem is that “wolf content” simply does not correlate well with behaviour, particularly in animals which have undergone selection for character and trainability, animals which furthermore have gained international recognition as being stable in character, and useful as working dogs. (Hence their recognition by the FCI not only as breeds but as Class 1 breeds – working dogs)

So we find the rather unfortunate situation where in fact people are penalized for good record keeping. If I take my dog with her pedigree and try to get into the UK I will get turned back. If I take my same dog without the pedigree and claim to be ignorant of her ancestry, I will be allowed in. Not entirely an ideal situation.

However DEFRA still needs to come up with some objective criteria to know which animals are admissible and which actually pose a public health threat. There are many ways to approach this, but why bar animals who have already proven themselves to the international community (not just to some friends and enthusiasts) from being admitted?

Ideas anyone?

But people want Huskies and Malamutes just because they want a 'snow dog' and some people want Staffies cuz they want a hard 'fighting dog'...etc...I know it's a case, well they are already here so you can't take them away...but if we had that sentiment when introducing all the other breeds to this country well we wouldn't have many to choose from would we?

You are always gonna have drink drivers but do we stop the production of cars??...In life you will always have a negative to a positive...but you know what I mean...

The NI and Utonagan can fall into the same trap as the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos Wolfdogs in that some people might just want them for image so I stress to everyone that comes across that way to me how they never bark, are zero aggressive, will run from trouble, would welcome burglars...etc etc...

It will be up to the breeders that may possibly introduce the breeds to the UK to really protect the breed while it became established.

Though that surely is no reason to give them in bad hands, most of them would be able to escape a chain round their neck, no matter how you chain them. We have a dog here that is able to pull up a window shutter, close the half opened window to fully open it and even jumps out of the second floor then without getting hurt. My husband had a dog that was able to open a locked VW bus side door. Absolutely no way to keep those dogs chained. And if you keep them locked alone in a garage they will howl for hours and drive your neighbours mad.

In your country you have laws for animal protection, if you follow the line not to give dogs into a country where they could be abused you couldn´t give any dog to anywhere. I wouldn´t be concerned about the reasons you talked about above but about the way most English people look at dog training and dog behaviour that I came to know quite well in many years and that workes very well with the common English breeds but not that well with many dogs of the "socially very adult dogs" that will test the rank order with their owner and try to dominate other dogs. You have to be quite strikt with wolfdogs and have to be aware to be tested even by puppies, not meaning that you shouldn´t be very loving and work with positiv reinforcement and motivation. But a wolfdog does only work for a person he respects as a pack leader and getting this position is much more a challenge than in many other breeds. If he doesn´t see you in this position he won´t be obidient if it isn´t in his interests no matter what treat you offer him. I know of two cases (and own one of them now) where the owner "lost his face". In both cases the dogs caused a lot of trouble and definitly were looking for a better owner. Both dogs had to be given away, accepted their new home a once and never looked back again to their old owner, and never caused any trouble again. Both dogs had loving, very caring owners with just one fault, they weren´t able to make a good pack leader, they were too "nice". I wouldn´t like one of my dogs to be kept on leash or locked up all it´s life because of that reason.
But you see the same problems with Akitas or Rottweilers and it is in the responsibility of the breeders to tell the people if the dog isn´t the right breed for them and to help them with problems. And it is in the responsibility of the new owners to look for such a breeder and to follow their advice.
As for the questions of rescue places and the reasons for dogs getting there. We had to find new places for some of our puppies. Mostly because a couple did split up, once because the Rhodesian Ridgebacks in the family didn´t accept the wolfdog and it started to stray around the village, once because the owner got into a satanistic circle one year after he got the dog, he didn´t abuse it but didn´t keep it properly and it got mated much to early. We could replace all dogs without problems in very good new homes. Most other cases we had to find new places for were once somebody who didn´t really fit to a wolfdog but got one from a breeder that isn´t member of the German kennel Club, the two dogs from above have been from breeders out of other countries that didn´t have the interest or the possibility to help. One case was someone who didn´t get a dog from three responsible breeders and went to Hungary because he wanted to show he was able to handle such a dog - well, he wasn´t but we found a good new home for the dog. Normally in Germany our Club tries to help the people in time or somebody keeps the dog till he has a new home. There is an international list on wolfdog.org for dogs that need a new home, at the moment there are 4 or 5 dogs on it. There are very few dogs showing up for rescue.

Ina

I think it's meant to be taken in context Dharkwolf, and they mean recent wild blood. As quoted from their literature:

Therefore:

And finally, it looks like they'll be using this as the benchmark:

Thank you for your reply Dharkwolf and also for the information on the GSD. This is very interesting. Although I had read the paper, that one important piece of information had escaped me! I am but a keen amateur in genetics.

Now, having properly read the paper, I see that the comment is that this indicates recent wolf ancestry, but “recent” in this instance is measured against the hypothesis that dogs originated more than 100,000 years ago, so possibly not comparable with the modern day origins of the SWD and CSW under discussion here.

Also the fact that the haplotype shared by the GSD and some wolves, is also found in breeds including the Bulldog, Basset Hound, Afghan Hound, Golden Retriever, Mexican Hairless and Toy Poodle. The wolf addition, essentially being before the divergence of these into separate breeds, and with such an incredibly diverse group, suggests that the timeframe involved may not be as recent as you infer by labelling the GSD a ‘Wolfdog,’ and on this criteria, should not the above named breeds also be referred to as Wolfdogs?

I do take your point on the limitations of mtDNA findings but it is interesting that the 2004 study found none of the common dog/wolf mt haplotypes. A more recent study (Sundqvist et al 2006) based on mtDNA and the paternally inherited Y chromosome finds the FCI group 5 (spitz and primitive breeds) to include the breeds most likely to have close wolf association.

I do believe that Savolainen is currently doing another Y chromosome study and there is also a nuclear study underway in the UK. I await with interest.

Sundqvist A-K, Björnerfeldt S, Leonard J, Hailer F, Hedhammar Å, Ellegren H and Vilà C (2006) Unequal contribution of sexes in the origin of dog breeds. Genetics 172: 1121-1128.

Hiya Mys,
I totally agree with what you've (as usual!!!) said in parts (unusually!);-)
The difference between this and other breeds is the fact that it does have recent wolf content in its blood. Thats the difference between introducing the wolfdog and introducing other breeds. I just think, for the breed, it's asking for trouble to introduce them here and I'm afraid that as interesting as all the posts have been on here, they have done nothing to change my mind, I still think the wolfdog, because of its wolf content would appeal to those people who should never have a dog, let alone a wilful one.

It's been said that other breeds are abused therefore it's okay to introduce the wolfdog I don't think it's acceptable to say other breeds are mistreated therefore it's okay to introduce this as abuse is happening anyway.:-( I don not understand why people would want to introduce abreed of such beautiful dogs knowing that it's a highway to trouble for the breed.
Yes, initially breeders will be careful about where the dogs go, but once the dogs are accepted over here, they can also be imported from less scrupulous dealers. Once a bitch is in a new home, the breeder can't ensure it's spayed therefor can't ensure what it will be mated with and what it will produce. Within 5 years you could have a breed with an appalling reputation (however undeserved) and lots of dogs being abused....
Sorry, I''m going to bow out at this point as we'll never all agree here. I think the dogs are beautiful and I know so much more about them, thanks everyone for that BUT i'm afraid I still don't think it is in the best interest of the breed to introduce them over here. Sorry. I'll continues to read the thread with interest.

Hello ina and welcome to Dogsey

These are some of the behavioural traits that I have seen cited as those which makes the modern dog/wolf 'hybrid' unsuitable as a pet and to me, sums up basically why I'm not in favour of introducing the CSW or SWD without the facility to restrict ownership to those who are capable of properly caring for these dogs. Like others who have commented, I see the probabilty of abuse to be greater than is already happening in some breeds, with the possible exception of some of the fighting breeds. But then I am also in favour of BSL.

It's been said that selectional criteria in the formation of this breed was based soley, or almost soley on temperament but it appears the number of generations is not yet sufficient to breed out the wolf traits. Hardly surprising when domestication (which is thought to have been initiated by the wolf, not man) has taken upwards of 15,000 years.

If all potential owners were as knowledgeble and caring as contributors to this thread, then there would be no problem but from what I have read here and elsewhere, the average CSW does not appear to have the temperament to cope with modern day living in the hands of the average UK pet owner.

There may not be a good correlation between behaviour and wolf content and I would suggest that a major reason for this could be that behaviour is multifactorial and greatly influenced by environment. This too is also going to slow down your shaping of temperament by selection.

If there was a way of measuring innate temperament without the influence of environment, then you may see a more predictable correlation. Interesting though.

Knowing many average UK pet owners I absolutely agree with that. But that is the fact for many breeds and for many average German owners too;-)
But there is still the point that we can´t visit your country with our totally normal dogs and that dog owners worldwide have to face more and more restrictions and dangerous dog lists in general and as Dharkwolf wrote the ban in your country gives arguments to dog hating people in other countries.

By the way I think you did get me wrong, a well trained wolfdog that likes his surrounding and his owner is able to escape but doesn´t do it. I can leave our yard open my dog will stay where I am. It even stays with me during veterinary hours the whole day long under my table without anybody realising that there is another dog in the room, the same in restaurants and in our dog school. You can be sure if you could get to know some properly trained wolfdogs you would find the hybrid argument as absurd as we do.

Ina

Thank you Ina. I very much hope that one day I will have the pleasure of meeting your beautiful breed

Thank you everyone who has posted photos.

:smt038
Exactly, Ina, I totally agree. I am not pushing anyone to get CSW, if they do not want to. But I find it ridiculous, that I cannot go for a vacation to UK and take my dogs with me.
Every mongrel of uncertain origin, if the vaccination prooves to be working (plus passport etc.etc.) can go there, but our normal pedigree certified and FCI recognised dogs cannot. And that only for predujice, misunderstanding and fears of unknown, resulting in the DEFRA ban.

Hi, I’m also new to the site and learnt about this interesting discussion from wolfodg.org. My experience is slightly different from other wolfdog owners who wrote their comments – I own a CSV of an unknown origin. My kids found a little puppy in a park 13 years ago. We searched for the owner - put notices everywhere, but nobody claimed her, so she stayed with us for good and this was one of the most fortunate happenings in our lives. Only after 10 years, just by accident (this is not a very popular breed in Poland, there are about 70 pedigree dogs registered) we learnt that she was a CSV and I have to admit that learning about cz. wolfodgs helped me understand her physiology, character and behaviour patterns, which I had always felt were a bit different form other dogs. (e.g. she was on heat only once a year, looked and moved like a wolf, was very willful and rational, but rather quiet and couldn’t bark when very young, etc.)

My experience is different in that sense that we raised Tina as an ordinary dog, in a flat in the centre of a big city in pure ignorance of her wolf roots. From her early days with us she had a lot of stimuli – encountered heavy traffic, journeys by trams and buses, visits of our and our kids’ friends, “expeditions” to many places, she had to stay on her own when we went to work, etc. I may assure everybody here that CSV IS A DOG, not any wild creature or beast or an unpredictable hybrid. When we got her we were neither dog experts nor behaviorists and at that time knew very little about wolves, but we managed to socialize and bring her up and train just after having read a few booklets about dogs and by using common sense, observing the reactions and empathizing with our dog – when we spotted that she was very rational in her reactions - we tried to understand her “way of thinking” and acted accordingly, which turned out to the best way of dealing with her. Our relationship with her has always been more of a partnership than mere “master- beloved dog” one. She has always been very kind and friendly with kids and people, rather obedient (though we always know when she disagrees with us). She has been most predictable – I can let her unleashed in any park and she wouldn’t threaten anybody or any other animal.
CSV are definitely a working breed. Tina taught herself how to act a geologist’s dog just by accompanying my husband and his team in their fieldwork. Believe me or not – though she’s now “retired” - she is still able to lead us to outcropped rocks in the woods , not to mention such trifles as showing shortcuts, warning against unstable rocks in quarries, etc. Nobody of the team would ever approach a “fresh” wall in a quarry if our dog refused to approach it first. She was able to run many kilometers without showing any signs of weariness, swam, dived in rivers and streams, entered dark caves, approached heights without fear and she LOVED that work! (and being praised for it ;-) ) We had her hips and spine X-rayed recently and her bones and joints are in perfect state. At the age of 13 she doesn’t have as much energy as she used to, but she still runs, jumps, pulls and swims. She is more active when it’s cold, but gets very slow in hot weather.

CSV are extremely smart and loyal and learn new things very quickly. However, they feel like “performing”, only when they see the sense of it – when they are well motivated or they realize that their activities are rational and pragmatic. That’s why it isn’t easy to train them by making repeat the same trick again and again, but they willingly do what their owner might expect them to do in ‘genuine’ conditions. I know now several wolfdogs and their owners and many of them may confirm this trait. That’s why even the most stupid owner cannot easily teach the dog aggression for fun, (other breeds would probably be much more “teachable”), but in REALLY dangerous situation a wolfodg would defend his pack, either trained or not. But since they are exceptionally emphatic, you cannot easily fool them and pretend the situation is dangerous if this is not the case!

Somebody might ask where our dog came from. I tried very hard to learn that, but I can only guess. We live close to Slovakian border. There were a few dog escapes from the military kennels reported and a couple of pedigree CSVs thefts in my country. I suppose there were, or even are now, some (though probably very few, since it isn’t common to meet a CSV in the street), unregistered breeders in Czech Republic, Slovakia and southern Poland. Over the last 10 years or so I’ve met three younger CSVs in our neighbourhood, two found in the vicinity of the same park where we found our dog, one bought in the street market. None of the owners had heard about wolfdogs before talking to me, but each stressed that their dog was very special in a very positive way and different from other breeds and dogs they had had earlier. And what’s most important – there weren’t any cases reported of those dogs aggressiveness. Other breeds – yes, but not wolfdogs – I suppose they are too rational and intelligent to attack for fun, unless trained to do so, but this concerns any dog, doesn’t it.

Personally, I think it’s quite weird that CSVs are not allowed in the UK, especially that many more dangerous breeds are not banned there. I lived in the UK for a few years and often travel there and I don’t think the percentage of strange, stupid or irresponsible people in England is higher than e.g. in Italy, Germany, Czech Republic or Poland where CSVs are owned and bred. I agree with some people’s earlier remarks that provided the breed is allowed in the UK the breeders would bear great responsibility concerning whom they sell the pups, but it concerns breeders of any big breeds, and any CSVs breeders everywhere… I agree with Mirka, that there is no single rational reason why one cannot bring his CSV to GB when going on holidays if one can travel with them everywhere else in Europe without any problems, and even go to zoos, restaurants, cafes, parks, etc. Paradoxically, as Mirka stated earlier, I could take my CSV to the UK, because since Tina doesn’t have “papers” stating that she’s a CSV, she would have to be registered as a mongrel. Do you see the nonsense of these regulations?

But to tell you the truth – CSV is not particularly useful as a “commercial” breed – most bitches are on heat just once a year, and the male and female have to “fall in love”, i.e. become fond of each other – some matches turn out to be impossible due to this characteristic. The pups are very ingenuous, require a lot of attention and thus they’re not easy to handle. Dogs of other breeds are easier to breed and train, and that’s why hopefully CSV will never become a ‘fashionable breed’, but….. if somebody has ever had a CSV as a Friend, he or she will always be a true lover of this breed

I'm coming in late on this debate - picking up fag ends! I also have an Eddie Harrison original - an entire male called Hal aged 9 years (his stud name is Kalika Kasa). Hal is not registered with either the Northern Inuit Society, nor the Utonagan Society, although his first litter of pups are registered Northern Inuits. I am not sure whether his second litter of pups - now a few months old - are reigstered Utonagans or not.

What I find so extraordinary is that THE most popular dog here in the UK, and I guess in many other parts of the world, is the German Shepherd Dog, formerly known as The Alsatian, formerly known as The German Wolfdog. The German Shepherd is about 20% wolf - and I am talking about the modern, current german shepherd. Time cannot "water down" genes. The fact that it is a long time since wolf was used in the breeding of GSD's does not mean that somehow they are no longer wolves, genetics do not work like this. The German Wolfdog, now known as The German Shepherd Dog, was bred originally from the wolf, and not that long ago, less than a century. Every single pedigree GSD in the UK is around 20% wolf. So therefore every single pedigree GSD in the UK should be impounded, according to the DEFRA rules, which state that if a dog has 1% or more of wolf blood, then its owners need a wildlife licence for it and the dog has to be kept in a compound. ALL dogs, irrespective of breed, are much higher percentage wolf than 1%. It is a complete misnomer to say "recent wolf blood". What nonsense! The mathematics don't add up. This is why the DEFRA ruling is plain idiotic.