Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Discussions

True, I can't see it happening!

Ok, thing is clear, you did not say that. However, it sounded a bit like that, I mean, usually that´s what worries people most.

I still think, if the breed is once recognised by FCI as a normal working dog breed, discussions like this are a little bit pointless. Surely somebody in FCI must have decided, that the breed was o.k. for public and stable as a breed itself. Pity that FCI and EKC don´t cooperate on this.

Hopefully one day we will be able to show our dogs on Cruft´s and then English public can make their own opinion about CSW.

Hi Mirkawolf - can you tell us anything about the health of these lovely dogs?

Hello everyone,

Yes I’m one of the lads over at wolfdog.org and as Azz quite rightly guessed, we heard about this thread and so some of us came over to share our love for our pups with you.

About wolfdogs in general – I was saddened but not too surprised to hear that Alisa1 was a bit worried about wolfdogs. Before I go any further I’ll try to explain what a wolfdog is and what a wolfdog is not.

A wolfdog as far as most wolfdog owners here in Europe are concerned is a recognized breed of dog whose pedigree can be traced back all the way to the wolf.

This contrasts sharply with a hybrid – or dog-wolf cross which is an animal that has is originally the offspring of a wolf and a dog, but generally is accepted to encompass also crosses between a hybrid and a dog or a hybrid and a wolf.

The key to differentiating the two is the fact that wolfdogs belong to internationally recognized breeds – that means that their character, appearance and in fact most of their characteristics are both well defined and predictable. A wolfdog may have a character which you don’t like (we all have our preferences after all!) but you will know what you are dealing with. A hybrid is far more problematic – they are far more unpredictable, you can make no assumptions about their behaviour. True some may be absolutely wonderful, but you will also have others which are extremely hard to deal with.

Bottom line – wolfdogs belong to defined breeds – are predictable, and because of this per se not necessarily more dangerous than any other large dog may be. (They all do have big teeth after all)

There is an unfortunate situation in the English speaking with these particular terms, because in the USA the terms wolfdog and hybrid are nearly synonymous – and that unfortunately leads to an awful lot of confusion! So bear this in mind – when I talk wolfdog I refer to a stable breed – full pedigree traceable all the way back to the wolf.

Wolf content is always a subject which makes me smile. What is the wolf content of that dog? Pick a dog, any dog. The wolf content is really going to be 100%. Some of you may even be aware of the taxonomical classification which has recently occurred, placing the grey wolf (canis lupus lupus) and the domestic dog (canis lupus familiaries) as two members of the same species. So when you ask “what is the wolf content of that wolfdog” what you are really asking is – how good is your book keeping? In the case of the Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we always know the “exact” wolf blood content provided it’s a pedigree dog. For all the good that does – it is not the wolf blood content that is important – it is the behaviour of the dog that you need to be looking at, and that, contrary to popular belief, is actually completely unrelated to the nominal percentage of wolf content (especially in a stable breed)

So – Lets talk about specific wolfdog breeds. I will mention three of them – The Czechoslovakian wolfdog, the Saarloos wolfdog and the Alsatian wolfdog (better known these days as the German Shepherd). It is interesting to note that in all cases the origin of the breeds was to create a strong stable working dog. In fact all breeds today belong to group 1. The Alsatians are renown for their ability to work. Saarloos wolfdogs were initially intended to work as guide dogs, and in fact during the 1950’s and 1960’s hundreds of them were successfully trained and used as guide dogs in the Netherlands, over time the working aspect of the Saarloos was neglected in favour of other considerations, though you can still find the occasional Saarloos who is well trained. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog was bred as a dog for the border patrols in Czechoslovakia – his primary role was to track, something at which they excel even today, although they are a very versatile breed with great endurance and capacity to work under difficult conditions. Unfortunately even though they make excellent working dogs, they do take a lot of time and effort to train, so they are not terribly popular as a working breed.

There are two great truths that have been said here already about the Czechoslovakian wolfdog in particular (I will let others who have more knowledge of the other wolfdog breeds discuss them) First they are not a breed for just anyone. They are stubborn, wilful, independent, intelligent (not always a good thing!) and require immense amounts of time. Even people who have significant experience with other breeds often have trouble with Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. Then again, in all honesty I don’t think I could handle a teckel, but I get along well enough with my wolfdogs – not every dog is suited to every owner and the wrong combination can result in trouble.

I won’t go at this time into the details of why they are or are not allowed in the UK – that’s a strange situation. Lets just say that a few years ago they were recognized by the UK Kennel Club and then all of a sudden they were struck from their lists (something which still baffles some people). So – they lived in the UK, and as far as we know caused no trouble at all while they did so.

I hope no one minds long posts around here, as you may have noticed, I tend to rant a little.

I know very little about the various Wolfdogs (this thread has been educational, thank you).

I think the problem lies with the nomenclature. The very name 'wolfdog' will have the same fear and/or fascination as does Pit Bull and like the unfortunate Pit Bull it will be labelled as 'bad' just because of its name. And, again, like the unfortunate Pit Bull, will be sought after by those who wish to pose and posture and be thought tough because they have a 'hard' dog (or at least a dog with a 'hard' breed name). And, again, like the unfortunate Pit Bull, what happens when these dimwit owners find they have a friendly, even shy, dog on the end of the lead? Will they tease, taunt and beat it to make it aggressive? Will they encourage it to pit itself against its own kind? Will they treat it so badly that it learns to hate people just to satisfy their own pathetic egos?

Too many dogs, Pits, Staffs, Akitas, etc. etc. suffer this treatment. If I were a wolfdog owner/breeder I would want to keep my breed in the hands of those that know it, not risk the yokels getting hold of it. Maybe it is to the advantage of the Wolfdogs that they are not accepted in the UK?

First of all, thanks Dharkwolf for a really informative post.
Oh, and welcome to Dogsey of course!
Shadowboxers post has summed it all up again for me I'm afraid.
I do not understand why you would want to have your dog introduced here, as wonderful as they are, when the dog will fall into the hands of the wrong people. If I knew my breed was going to be mistreated I would be doing everything I could to avoid the place that could happen in. Sadly there are people here who use dogs as status symbols. They WOULD mistreat these dogs to make them aggressive,(I am NOT saying they are more prone to aggression but mistreat any dog and itr will ultimate retaliate out of fear) the press would report it (and have a field day) and BANG you have a breed with a bad name, as so many breeds over here have (very sadly).
I just don't think it would be a good thing to introduce these dogs, not because of their temprament, but because of what will happen to them. Sorry.:-(

Hmm. These lovely Czechoslovakian wolfdogs are very healthy beasts, usually. The breed as such is very weather resistant, they normally can spend all year round outside in the kennel. In winter, in Czech republic we can have -25C and the wolfdogs are all fine. Of course, they are provided with dry and comfy wooden kennel, but some of them tend to sleep more on the roof of it, than inside ;-)
They do not mind rain, they love snow. They do not like the summer heats, but well, who does.. I don´t!

On the other side, CSW can be kept in appartement, as any other dog. They adapt very quickly, and they usually find sofa very comfortable, as well they are cheered by presence of fridge (which they can learn to open).;-)

In the breed is controlled hip dysplasia, something that came inevitably with German shepherds (wolves are dysplasia free). It is highly recommended (in fact, CR and Slovakia have very strict rules about this) to x-ray all CSWs that potentially would breed and dog with worse result than 2/2 (C/C) should not breed (in CR and Slovakia results D, E and worse mean automatically no breeding).




Now, tell me something about Utonagans.. ;-)

Hello Mirkawolf
I did not make my initial posts as clear as I should have done, I understand why people are touchy about the wolf content and aggression questions, but they are not my problems with introducing the breed (although I do have ethical issues with x breeding wolves still.)
Sadly, the English public will make up their mind about your dogs long before they are shown at Crufts.:-( On top of that, the dog owners I am concerned about, will probably not watch or be interested in the coverage of Crufts, or even aware of it in some cases.:?
I see on a pretty much daily basis, what happens to some breeds of dogs over here and pretty much everyone is powerless to stop it. I would NOT want that to happen to your dogs and it would. Why inflict that on them?

Sad thing is, that it already IS happening to them. And they don´t even have to go to UK for that. CSW already became welcome subject of money making for some puppy producers, mainly in Western Europe.
So far, nobody is trying to make them aggressive, there is opposite problem. People get them because they like the wolf-like appearance, but know nothing about raising them properly. Which usually ends up with the dogs being shy or timid, which then the owners claim to be normal, because they think that´s how wolves are! :twisted:

Hi!
I think that would be a problem here too, but people would also mistreat them in an attempt to make them aggressive.
An example of what could happen.
A group of teenage lads were seen recently with a staffordshire bull terrier pup (about 9 months old) they had a cone from the road and were poking it and winding it up, making noises, with the dog tied up, on lead, trying to provoke a reaction from it and make it respond aggressively. That's the sort of thing I am worried about happening to these beautiful dogs of yours.:-( (And worse).

Hello Dharkwolf and welcome to Dogsey. Thank you for your contribution on this...and also the other new members

Just a couple of points I would like to raise from your post -

Yes I agree with the first sentence. It has now been confirmed that dogs, and as far as is known, all breeds, descended from the wolf but there is difference of opinion on how the classification should be and the usual is to put the dog Canis familiaris as a subspecies of the wolf Canis lupus.

Researchers have now been able to distinguish genetically between the wolf and dog, based on changes in the mitochondrial DNA, which occur at a more or less predicted rate over time. It has taken upwards of 15 thousand years to achieve the mtDNA changes found in the modern dog breeds and it would be expected that none of these changes would have occurred in a population that has been in domestication for less than a century. This would place the wolfdogs in a DNA cluster with the wolves and separate from all other known dog breeds, so therefore should be known by the founder species scientific name of Canis lupus if they are truly descended soley from wolves.

I don't know if either of the wolfdog breeds have been included in any DNA studies (they're not included in Ostrander's) but it would interesting to see if this was the case and could indicate if any interbreeding has occurred.

Unfortunately the German Shepherd Dog was at one time referred to as a Wolfdog in the UK and there have been many references to it being of either recent wolf descent or of having recent wolf content, but no evidence for this has ever been put forward and has always been refuted by the GSD community. Recent DNA studies have now confirmed that the GSD is no closer to the wolf genetically than most other breeds and is grouped in a cluster with some of the Mastiff type breeds ie Bernese Mountain Dog, Newfoundland, Rotweiller (Ostrander et al 2004).

Parker HG, Kim LV, Sutter NB, Carlson S, Lorentzen TD, Malek TB, Johnson GS, DeFrance HB, Ostrander EA, Kruglyak L. 2004. Genetic structure of the purebred dog. Science 304:1160-1164.

Ok, I realise from this that I've misunderstood Dharkwolf's comments about wolfdogs being 100% wolf. The first crosses seemingly were wolf x GSD.

I fail to see what difference holding a pedigree and registration certificate makes to the actual dog. Perhaps you have more generations of known breeding behind your dogs and the wolf content more stabilised, but essentially the are the same.

Thanks to everyone for the fantastic reception! It truly is encouraging to find such a supportive community.

I will clarify a few things now about Czechoslovakian wolfdogs in the UK.

Actually, like I mentioned previously, Czechoslovakian wolfdogs (normally abbreviated as CSV from the original Czech name or CSW) have already been recognized by the UK Kennel club, and they have already participated in Crufts – unfortunately that recognition was revoked, though I am still not entirely sure why (if someone knows why, I’d be interested in the information)

Why is it a problem? Well, for me it’s a bit of a personal problem, as I have been forced to turn down some interesting job offers in the UK because of that particular ban, but beyond my little woes it is a problem for the breed as far as regulators are concerned. If a breed is banned in some country (any country) then other countries are more likely to wonder why that is so, and consider implementing measures to restrict the breed in some way or another. Note however that Czechoslovakian wolfdogs are in a bit of a legal nether zone in the UK. Nothing specifically prohibits them, yet some people interpret that they fall under the DWA act and others do not – it’s a matter of criteria and interpretation, and honestly things are not really very clear. Some will say that an animal which contains a certain percentage of wolf blood is to be restricted end of tale – but of course all dogs contain wolf blood. Would an IPO 3 trained dog with an excellent record sheet as a rescue dog be considered as anything other than a dog? Well, some people seem to think so.

The question has been raised about the wolfdog falling into hands of unscrupulous people who will try to rile them up to fight or provoke them in some ways. There is a lot to be said for having a stubborn intelligent dog though – the CSW has lots of defects and can be problematic, one of the biggest problems if you try to train one is getting them to train defence – they simply do no like to bite. Many (not all) of them simply refuse. The world is not a pretty place at times, and it is not only in the UK that people rile up dogs and provoke them time and again – for whatever the reason. Some breeds have been misused all over the world not just in the UK. So if this was to be a problem with the CSW – we would already be seeing it in France, Germany, Poland etc – but the fact is we don’t. Why? Probably because the character of the CSW is such that he doesn’t lend himself to the game. If a CSW is mistreated, he escapes. (CSWs can be magnificent escape artists if given a good reason)

I think the main issue with wolfdogs in the UK remains one of semantics, and lack of information coming in from the US where there is a lot of confusion between wolfdogs and wolf hybrids. That is not to say the issue is negligible or trivial, it is not. I would only wish you could meet some of our dogs so that you could see for yourselves what I’m actually talking about.

Now to respond to another interesting comment:

It’s an interesting point you raise Pod.

There are a number of facts to point out here. First – the GSD is one of the dog breeds which has been found to have a mitochondrial haplotype exactly matching that of the Carpathian wolf (C. Vila et al, 1997) the classification may be changed around, as you seem to know about genetics you should be aware that classification is based on criteria which are partly inferred, and partly postulated. Thus depending on your criteria for classification, the GSD ends up being far from wolves, or remarkably close.

However – though it is typical to study mitochondrial haplotypes in wild populations to study genetic drift and define the relationships between species, the approach is not valid for domestic animals, as the selection methods in domestication are arbitrarily set by human breeders, rather than selected for in nature. Simply because mitochondrial DNA, unlike chromosomal DNA, is strictly inherited from the mother. So if I were to cross a male wolf and a female dog, the mitochondrial haplotype of the F1 litter would tell me those animals would have no wolf ancestors – even though their father was actually a wolf! So in a breeding program where I used say four male wolfs, you simply would never see any of them.

Secondly – while part of the GSD community refutes the fact the GSD ever had anything to do with the wolf, there are parts of the community which do not – for instance in some parts of Europe (ie Czech Republic) the German Shepherd is still referred to as simply “the wolfdog” however I will stay away from that particular debate at this time, and go back to talking about my wolfdogs, which I know the most about.

Caries Vila, Peter Savolainen, Jesus E. Maldonado, Isabel R. Amorim, John E. Rice, Rodney L. Honeycutt, Keith A. Crandall, Joakim Lundeberg, Robert K. Wayne, 1997, Multiple and Ancient Origins of the Domestic Dog, Science 276: 1687-1689.

am absolutely fascinated by all this. I used to be on wolfdog.org but my computer crashed and I no longer have the password so am unable to get in anymore. I used to love seeing the dogs on there. I seem to remember that there was someone over here with CW's and his female was killed in a road accident, it was around the time that it was decided that CW's were NOT welcome over here, as opposed to them being welcome at Crufts. Very confusing even to me.
Our dogs too get a lot of bad press just because of what they look like and their behavioural instincts. They are not easy dogs to have and train by any means, I have found them most challenging but I enjoy being with them and their warped sense of humour.
My 2 are the friendliest girls in the world as those who have met them can tell you, but when I walk down the road with them as I did yesterday on a busy shopping day people actually give them a wide berth and look at me as though I am an alien!!! Here are piccies of my two, they were 7 months old then, they are now 9 months old, have just been weighed and are 32 kilos each. How does that compare to your dogs?

Alot of this is all over my head, but am totally fascinated by everyones comments and learning so much more about these dogs.
I hope you all continue to keep using this site, your dogs are beautiful.

I think the legal standpoint in the UK is based on wild blood. Hence people need a wild animals licence to keep certain animals.

Here is a quote from a document from DEFRA that you might find interesting:

You can download the full document from here:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/gwd/wolfdogs/wolfdogs.pdf

The kennel club here were pleased to allow entry to the first Czechoslovakian wolfdogs a few years back, they welcomed them and allowed them to be shown at crufts then they liasoned with DEFRA who's rule it is, if a dog has more than just 1% wolf content it is to be deemed a wild animal thus requiring a DWA licence and to be kept as a wild animal with many restrictions.

Thank you to all the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and Saarloos Wolfdog owners coming to talk about your dogs, it is turning out to be a very educational thread and you all have way better english than I do! I for one really appreciate your effort into the thread...

Thank you for the nice photos. The dogs look very different from each other. Is that normal for the breed? Sorry but here we know nothing about Utonagans at all. Just that they exist.

We have two females Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. The older one, Cira, will be 8 years, at the bonitation she had 66,5cm in shoulders and weighed around 30 kg. We measured her two weeks ago, she was 68 cm in shoulders and currently she has 33 kg.

The younger female - Ali, will be two years in November, she was measured two weeks ago with 66 cm in shoulders and she weighs roughly 33,5 kg.

Here they are:


Funny enough, the standard says females CSW should be minimally 60cm in shoulders and 20 kg, males 65 cm and 25 kg. To be honest, animals looking like that are very skinny and there is not too many of them. Most of males I know are from 35 - 45 kg and size 66 - 72 cm in shoulders.

For some idea, here go pictures again:

typical male:



typical female:

To Dharkwolf and all the other wolfdog owners - thank you for taking the time to write such informative posts. It is really wonderful to hear about your dogs.

stunning dogs, especially the male.
My 2 are litter sisters, one is a rough haired and the other is short haired, they are both double coated.
I was originally just having the rough coated one as my old girl was a rough coated one, however she had another stroke and unfortunately died just before I brought my pup home, so when I went to pick her up, I came home with 2!!!!
Having already had one of the original dogs bred by Eddie Harrison I was already aware of how different they are to other dogs both in their mannerisms and training needs. However, having not had a puppy for 12 years it was an enormous culture shock, which I have now overcome and enjoying my time with my girls. Still miss Tawney of course, she was with me a long time and I will never forget her and the lessons she taught me.
Your dogs look very similar to the Northern Inuit dogs we have here, Myscheivous and Luz are both the proud owners of some beautiful dogs.