Dog's Today September - Utonagan and Wolfdogs Discussions

Hello, a new member here, too. And another one to defend out wonderfull breed. My name is Mirka and I am from Czech Republic, country of origin of the breed Czechoslovakian wolfdog. And a proud owner of two wonderfull Czechoslovakian wolfdog females.

I absolutelly agree with all that Ina said. To add anything to that, I´d only repeat what was said.

The breed was officially recognised by FCI in 1981, but years before the crossings were made. In fact, the breed exists for more than 45 years. The wolf-blood content is very hard to say, because no wolf was added to the breed for years. And frankly, I do not find it important at all.

It is not the wolf-blood content, that makes the character of the breed or of individual dog. It is only the breeder and the owner, who shape the character of the dog. It is the way they socialise the pups, train and educate the dogs.

In wrong hands, every dog goes wrong. To think, that in wrong hands, wolfdog goes worse, is silly. I would bet, that if the breed was called Czechoslovakian shepherd, this thread would not ever get so far.

My wolfdogs were attacked by these breeds: Golden Retriever, Siberian Husky, Malinois, Bichon and Staffordshire Terrier. Should I cry that these breeds are dangerous?

Wolf is beautiful creature, social, playfull, fair and wild. Wolf is not aggressive and dangerous beast, only silly people think so. Reading something else than Little Red Ridding Hood would help greatly.

We offer to anyone to come and visit us anytime and see for themselves, what kind of dog is CSW.

On the photo are our and friends very dangerous wolfdogs on a visit of a ZOO.;-)

I don't think there is a conspiracy Alisha - we prob just got mentioned on one of their forums... thats what normally happens when you get new members go straight to one thread

Regarding these dogs, I think many people are concerned because they feel they may be more dangerous than normal dogs, purely because they have 'wild' blood in them. And they feel that once that get's 'out' they may end up in the wrong hands (as what happens to many other breeds).

From a legal standpoint, as far as I know in the UK, a wild animals licence would be needed for any animal with more than 5% wild blood - but I'm not entirely sure on that figure so you'd need to look it up.

The reason I know this because I own a Bengal cat which also was created using wild blood (of the Asian Leopard Cat). Although there is a massive difference in size, similar principles apply with regards to the law. With Bengal cats it's not until at least 4 generations away from any wild blood that they are considered a Bengal. All others are known as foundation stock.

I can't remember the specifics now as it's been so long but I think the first foundation mating is a ALC X a domestic cat
f2 is then the offspring of that x a domestic cat, f3 is then the offspring of an f2 breeding x a domestic cat and f4 is the offspring of the f3 mating x a domestic cat. This goes on and most Bengals today are at least f10 or further, and I think their wild blood is less than 0.02%. My figures might be completely wrong here mind so its worth researching it if it interests you. What this shows is that the resulting wild blood in the 'Pet' Bengals is actually very very small (and so does not require a Wild Animals Licence).

I guess people would be interested in how this differs to your own Breed? They are certainly beautiful animals (especially those two on the right in the pic above :smt049 ) but people will naturally be apprehensive about wild blood content in any pet, purely from the safety aspect.

Remember, as ambassadors of your breed, it is your responsibility to do what you can to allay peoples fears - don't take them as insults, but just for what they are, genuine concern.

Thanks for clearing that up Azz, having been on threads where new members appeared I was a tad concerned!!! ;-)

My intention is NOT to criticise individual members OR a particular breed of dog, not my style at all.

I am concerned about nobody being able to say exactly what the wild blood content is as I feel that if accurate breeding records were kept, (which I also feel they should have been when breeding from wild animals) then it should be possible to say exactly what the wild blood content is shouldn't it? I'm perhaps being a little naive, but surely good breeding records are vital in a situation like this?

My concern is for the welfare of the animals totally. I have to say, in all honesty, I am uncomfortable with the idea of x breeding wolves to make a family pet...we've done that already and got...well, dogs.... I still feel, very strongly, that the wrong sort of people will be attracted to this breed and the breeding will become a problem. This will happen if they are introduced here.

I haven't suggested for a moment that a wolfdog will become worse than another breed if it is poorly handled or trained, I don't know. I don't know if it is or more or less likely than other breeds to show aggression if cornered and it cannot flee. I don't know. As I say, my concern, the concern I have expressed, is for the welfare of the dogs AND I also (and am being totally honest and upfront) have issues about the ethics of x breeding from a wild animal.

I'm sure the dogs are lovely and have commented on their beauty. My overriding concern is for their welfare. I have seen how many dogs, of certain breeds are treated, I have seen how they turn out. I would not wish that on these dogs.

Mirkawolf, welcome to Dogsey.
The dogs are beautiful.
Noone on here has said that the dogs are aggressive or dangerous.
The thread was started because of an article in a magazine about wolfdogs, which I read...(as did others on here)

Have to say I've really enjoyed this thread, learning about these breeds and seeing the lovely pictures! :smt049

Hopefully one day, responsible owners in the UK will be able to enjoy this breed too.

Hi Rip.
Sorry Rip...how do you make sure it's just responsible owners??? If it was just responsible owners that could have them then great...let them in and I'll have one!!! Sadly,there is absolutely no way of ensuring that at all and we all know what could happen to this beautiful breed in the wrong hands.
My question is, is it worth it?
For a few responsible owners to have these dogs, is it worth the living hell the rest of them could go through??????

Thanks guys for coming on and talking about your beautiful dogs. I went walking with wolves with an organisation that works with them and has ambassador wolves and felt utterly privileged to do so (I even got to stroke one and that wolf was absolutely lovely - when she looked at me my heart leapt) and I would feel privileged to to be able to have a wolfdog too - if only! I absolutely agree that wolves are fair - I think they are wonderful, amazing animals.

I don't have the concerns or worries that some have about wolfdogs at all BUT I do know that in this country there are some that would consider it 'macho' and 'hard' to walk around with a wolfdog - wrongly I agree but I think education is the key else it is the animals that suffer when the owners can't cope, get fed up with them or if they don't live up to the tough image expected of them. Something similar has happened in the US I believe, where wolf hybrids have ended up chained up outside because people don't know how to look after them and have acquired them for all the wrong reasons and there are rescue centres set up purely for them.

It's brilliant to hear from you, as owners, and I hope you will continue to post and tell us all about your wonderful dogs. I'm looking forward to hearing more ...

Oh good grief all I wanted to do was say how much I'm enjoying learning about these breeds. :-(

The reason I put "responsible" owners was to reiterate that not all people that like wolf type breeds are hard core nutters.

I really have no idea how it would be controlled, I'm sure those that own the breed will have a better idea of that than me. But the word wolf seems to have upset some a great deal when my understanding is that wolf hasn't been introduced for some time? The wolf content would be purely mathematical as I understand someone else has already stated here?

At the end of the day these dogs may well be more difficult to own than many domestic breeds of dog, but just as challenging as some others. Just because they had wolf in them decades ago doesn't mean they'll turn in to rabid demons at the flick of a switch.

Rip, I wasn't having a go at you, just asking a question.:-(

I've not suggested for one moment that these dogs will turn into rabid monsters. I'm concerned for their welfare, that's all.( I am not saying that no one else is concerened for their welfare, I am saying that my worry is their welfare when they are in the wrong hands.)
At no point have I questioned the temperament of these dogs.
People seem awfully tetchy about this.

I guess this is a bit like some other breeds - some people think it's hard to walk around with a well-muscled dog on a heavy chain . Maybe we need to work on people's misconceptions about wolves ("murderous killers, aggressive" etc. ) which is what these wolf societies try to do by taking their wolves to fun days, that kind of thing and educate the public. When people stop seeing the wolf as an evil killer and learn to appreciate their intelligence and sensitivity they may come to understand wolfdogs better?

I've just read through this thread again to double check my posts.
I can see why people have thought I think they may be dangerous, but I don't and at no point have I said that they could be or are.:-(
I have said they will fall into the wrong hands.
Any dog, in the wrong hands, can be dangerous.
These dogs,even just because of their name, will be attractive to the wrong type of person. There is no denying that. They will be subjected to cruelty, they will be trained the wrong way and to do the wrong things. They will be badly bred in side streets.
Those things are my concern. Tap all to do with the wolf in them (thats a different ethical concern for me).
Is it morally right to introduce a breed into this country when everyone of us knows what will happen to it?
Aren't there already enough cruelty cases here and dogs in rescue????? That's my main point. Nothing to do with wolves or the temprament of wolves or these dogs.

They are beautiful dogs.
I'm going to leave this thread now as I don't want to upset anyone else.

I said I was leaving the thread but missed your post on my read through LS, so I'll answer this one.
Education is the key to everything. I totally agree. Education is vital.
Getting the education to the right people though is tough and time consuming.
Sadly, I think it will take a long time. The prejudices against wolves are deep seated and are spread throughout our folk lore. Not sure it will ever be possible to toally erradicate the prejudice.:-(

I'm not upset Ailsa - I think I understand what you are saying - that because people don't understand the wolf (still have Little Red Riding Hood Mentality ) they will think it's cool and hard to own a wolfdog and when they find out the dogs aren't what they thought, they will mistreat the dog.

I agree that there are people out there like that which is why I think they need to understand the true nature of the wolf first. Having said that there will always be some that will be attracted to a 'different' type of dog for status and then get bored. But there are others (like me ) who wouldn't.

I'm inclined to agree with Ailsa on this one. The domestic dog has evolved from the wolf over many thousands of years and latest research on this indicates that the first stage of domestication was a very slow process and initiated by the wolf rather than man. The wolves most suited to tolerating the presence of humans would have been the ones to first take advantage of the easy pickings round the villages and these would have been the first ancestors of the domestic dog.

Thousands of years later the temperament of these would have changed enough to allow the wolf true domestication with the intervening selectional criteria being almost solely based on temperament. This is confirmed in the latest DNA research where the biggest genetical difference between dog and wolf is said to be in behavioural traits.

I too think these dogs are wonderful looking animals and agree that the natural phenotype of a wild animal is a very good starting point as far as health is concerned. Also it's commendable that some are doing well in training and other disciplines. I have not had the pleasure of meeting one but from what I have heard, the temperament is inclined to be nervous in some. I know this can occur in any breed and I’d like to hear from those of you who have experience, how they compare to other breeds in this respect.

Obviously there is going to be a wide range in temperament, as there is in all breeds but my concerns too, are that with so few generations in domestication, and without the ruthless culling of natural selection, some of these dogs will just not be suited to modern day living in human society.

Someone has commented earlier that a dogs temperament is shaped only be the breeder and owner and not by the parentage. If this were the case, then we would have no need of specific breeds for specialist disciplines. We could train our Siberian Huskies to herd sheep, our Basset Hounds to retrieve for the gun and out Labradors to do manwork. All dogs are different genetically and it has taken countless generations to breed these traits in.

That's fine, all I wanted to do was thank those with wolfdogs for posting excellent info on their animals.

It just seemed to me you were assuming these dogs would be agressive (which you've rectified ) and was getting slightly hung up about their wolf content, which is irelevant now I think.

I don't agree with breeding dogs with wolves and would prefer to go down the Ute/NI route personally, but someone's done it (many moons ago) and I just think looked after right these dogs could be wonderful.

Lets face it if it isn't wolfdogs being in the wrong hands it'd be some other poor breed. :-(

LS i know there are people and I know you are certainly one of them, that would treat these dogs with the respect any animal deserves. There are also plenty who won't and how can we agree to introduce a breed knowing exactly what will happen to it?
Yes attitudes to wolves need to be altered before these dogs are allowed in but I think that will take decades to be honest.:-(
Unlikely the ban on them is going to be lifted anyway... ;-)

True, I can't see it happening!

Ok, thing is clear, you did not say that. However, it sounded a bit like that, I mean, usually that´s what worries people most.

I still think, if the breed is once recognised by FCI as a normal working dog breed, discussions like this are a little bit pointless. Surely somebody in FCI must have decided, that the breed was o.k. for public and stable as a breed itself. Pity that FCI and EKC don´t cooperate on this.

Hopefully one day we will be able to show our dogs on Cruft´s and then English public can make their own opinion about CSW.

Hi Mirkawolf - can you tell us anything about the health of these lovely dogs?

Hello everyone,

Yes I’m one of the lads over at wolfdog.org and as Azz quite rightly guessed, we heard about this thread and so some of us came over to share our love for our pups with you.

About wolfdogs in general – I was saddened but not too surprised to hear that Alisa1 was a bit worried about wolfdogs. Before I go any further I’ll try to explain what a wolfdog is and what a wolfdog is not.

A wolfdog as far as most wolfdog owners here in Europe are concerned is a recognized breed of dog whose pedigree can be traced back all the way to the wolf.

This contrasts sharply with a hybrid – or dog-wolf cross which is an animal that has is originally the offspring of a wolf and a dog, but generally is accepted to encompass also crosses between a hybrid and a dog or a hybrid and a wolf.

The key to differentiating the two is the fact that wolfdogs belong to internationally recognized breeds – that means that their character, appearance and in fact most of their characteristics are both well defined and predictable. A wolfdog may have a character which you don’t like (we all have our preferences after all!) but you will know what you are dealing with. A hybrid is far more problematic – they are far more unpredictable, you can make no assumptions about their behaviour. True some may be absolutely wonderful, but you will also have others which are extremely hard to deal with.

Bottom line – wolfdogs belong to defined breeds – are predictable, and because of this per se not necessarily more dangerous than any other large dog may be. (They all do have big teeth after all)

There is an unfortunate situation in the English speaking with these particular terms, because in the USA the terms wolfdog and hybrid are nearly synonymous – and that unfortunately leads to an awful lot of confusion! So bear this in mind – when I talk wolfdog I refer to a stable breed – full pedigree traceable all the way back to the wolf.

Wolf content is always a subject which makes me smile. What is the wolf content of that dog? Pick a dog, any dog. The wolf content is really going to be 100%. Some of you may even be aware of the taxonomical classification which has recently occurred, placing the grey wolf (canis lupus lupus) and the domestic dog (canis lupus familiaries) as two members of the same species. So when you ask “what is the wolf content of that wolfdog” what you are really asking is – how good is your book keeping? In the case of the Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we always know the “exact” wolf blood content provided it’s a pedigree dog. For all the good that does – it is not the wolf blood content that is important – it is the behaviour of the dog that you need to be looking at, and that, contrary to popular belief, is actually completely unrelated to the nominal percentage of wolf content (especially in a stable breed)

So – Lets talk about specific wolfdog breeds. I will mention three of them – The Czechoslovakian wolfdog, the Saarloos wolfdog and the Alsatian wolfdog (better known these days as the German Shepherd). It is interesting to note that in all cases the origin of the breeds was to create a strong stable working dog. In fact all breeds today belong to group 1. The Alsatians are renown for their ability to work. Saarloos wolfdogs were initially intended to work as guide dogs, and in fact during the 1950’s and 1960’s hundreds of them were successfully trained and used as guide dogs in the Netherlands, over time the working aspect of the Saarloos was neglected in favour of other considerations, though you can still find the occasional Saarloos who is well trained. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog was bred as a dog for the border patrols in Czechoslovakia – his primary role was to track, something at which they excel even today, although they are a very versatile breed with great endurance and capacity to work under difficult conditions. Unfortunately even though they make excellent working dogs, they do take a lot of time and effort to train, so they are not terribly popular as a working breed.

There are two great truths that have been said here already about the Czechoslovakian wolfdog in particular (I will let others who have more knowledge of the other wolfdog breeds discuss them) First they are not a breed for just anyone. They are stubborn, wilful, independent, intelligent (not always a good thing!) and require immense amounts of time. Even people who have significant experience with other breeds often have trouble with Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. Then again, in all honesty I don’t think I could handle a teckel, but I get along well enough with my wolfdogs – not every dog is suited to every owner and the wrong combination can result in trouble.

I won’t go at this time into the details of why they are or are not allowed in the UK – that’s a strange situation. Lets just say that a few years ago they were recognized by the UK Kennel Club and then all of a sudden they were struck from their lists (something which still baffles some people). So – they lived in the UK, and as far as we know caused no trouble at all while they did so.

I hope no one minds long posts around here, as you may have noticed, I tend to rant a little.