New mom to Kharma Discussions

Turid Rugaas was the pioneer in this field. I am very impressed by the work coming out of the University of Budapest, headed by Dr. Adam Miklósi. Particularly in studying the ways that dogs are able to learn from our gestures. Such as directional pointing, or demonstrating what you want the dog to do.
I am also a Kikopup fan. You can't go far wrong with her methods, and even novices can understand the the way she demonstrates.

I haven't read much at all about dogs and possible guilt, except recently I read something about the part of the brain responsible for guilt isn't developed in dogs. This is for bigger minds than mine.

Still can't think of the name that woman. Everyone "knew" her....

I put it above. The Norweigan woman is Turid Rugaas.
I remember going to a lecture when I was working Eddie - I think it would be about 9 years ago.

Ding-ding-ding! Helidale gets the prize. Turid Rugaas.

I teach nonverbals to most verbals. I love the days that flow with nonverbal communication and trained dogs.

I've been away from new research, methods, etc. so all this information is wonderful. My niece is prepping a new pup to become a therapy dog...I've new info to share with her.

The problem with determining guilt in dogs is that humans think about it in terms of human reasons for feeling guilt. For example, we expect a dog to feel guilty for pottying inside or chewing up a shoe or ripping apart a pillow. But to a dog, those things aren't "bad" things.

However if you've ever seen two dogs playing together and one accidentally nips the other too hard, you will see an interaction that is very similar to a "I'm so sorry! Forgive me please" - which suggests that dogs can and do feel guilt.

My personal take is that it is egotistical to think that dogs (or any other animal) CANNOT feel the full gamut of emotions. We just have to learn to understand WHY and in what context they would feel them.

The new research that is showing just how well dogs can read humans is amazing. I do find it sad that in all these thousands of years of domestication, we humans are so lousy at reading our dogs when our dogs are so good at reading us. Heck we (global we) can barely identify when our dogs need to potty and they can follow our point and hand signals and facial expressions. I say somewhere our part of this partnership fell way short.

Maybe I'm playing semantics; I see this more as an "Uh-oh..." or an "Oopsie!" than guilt.

When I rough-house with a dog (who knows the boundaries/guidelines that come attached) and they get too "enthusiastic," I don't have to do a thing...they check themselves and the fun continues. This is different from when I do have an instant reaction, say to pain, and they stop to see where we're headed from there.

At least to me, the expression of a dog who is fearful of (potential) consequence looks similar, if not sometimes the same, as what we think guilt might look like--if that makes sense how I said it.

I agree we're dumb as rocks after living with these wonderful beasts for thousands upon thousands of years. And we spend too much time working against them instead of with them. (I use "we" globally, as a entire population of humans who think we know everything.)

We haven't even figured out our own brains, except we know we don't know what most of it does. Even more so with dogs yet we know they have abilities we don't (sniffing out cancer, for example).

I've much reading to catch up on. Thanks for all the info.

I've watched Tornado-dog get a bit too rough with Cat-dog and Cat-dog yelps. As soon as she yelps, Tornado-dog is giving her licks all over her face as if to say "I'm so sorry! Don't be mad at me!" To me, that is guilt. I hurt you and I regret it, forgive me.

I think it's different when a dog is playing with people because the dog understands that people are not dogs and react differently (one of many reasons why the old dominance/pack leader theories are wrong). But watch two dogs interact with each other without human intervention and I think you see a lot more emotions than they are given credit for.

But the truth is, we can only guess. We know they can feel pain, happiness, fear, satisfaction, that they hold grudges (yes, it's been proven), etc. So, how can we say that dogs (or any animal) are unable to feel guilt?

Check out Mark Bekoff on Psychology Today. He has some great articles about the complexity of animals and their happiness.

Stanley Coren writes articles for them too, but you have to watch his conclusions and his interpretations of studies. He has a habit of forming and stating study conclusions that the study authors actually specifically warn against.

A couple years ago, Smithsonian did an article on canine cognition called The Evolution of Friendship. The slant is that while we've only recently begun to study their behavior, they've been studying us since first domesticated...basically, because that's what dogs do. Don't remember being wow'd over the article, but it did discuss the subject of guilt. Just mentioning in case you're interested. (As I said, I haven't read much in a while about such things.)

I have to share a dog attitude (emotion) story I just remembered. I had a visitor once who had ignored my dog upon arrival and afterward. When someone mentioned my dog had been patiently waiting to be acknowledged, he excused himself by saying that he liked little dogs, then gestured for my dog to come over. My dog turned his back on him and planted that big 'ol fanny down without hesitation. And sat there. It's very hard to believe that was mere coincidence, without intent...and/but that would mean the dog had developed a sense (or higher sense?) of the attitude it displaying.

Turid Ruegas

Oh dogs know when they are being "dissed".

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...-know-when-theyve-been-dissed-and-dont-it-bit

I've seen so many examples of animals comprehending more than humans think is possible.

Meanwhile, we are having a thunderstorm. Every time the thunder sounds, Tornado-dog looks out the window barking to make the tresspassing Thunder go away...

He's not afraid of it, he thinks it's a person tresspassing.

I train my dogs to like thunderstorms from when they are young because I enjoy them .

It is the tropics here so there is a lot .

we sit and watch them out the window while i have them under ‘my wing’ safely . Reassuring them verbally , not in a consoling way , in a is’nt this nice fun way ,sometimes changing the subject like its not even an issue .

I also take them for a walk in thunderstorms sometimes , when they roll in in the afternoons . Off lead in a paddock too , its something they can get used to as they are part of life , their effect wears off.

some of the big bangs over head are a bit trickier for a newster.

Re :
dogs and Guilt , remember once having some tasty human treats in a brown paper bag on the dashboard inside the car and leaving the dogs momentarily .

when I returned all the tasty treats were missing from the bag , looking around now who could that be ?

the male dog did not greet me and was trying to do his best to make himself small and unnoticeable .hiding his “crime”.

It was obvious it was him , so from the perspective of ‘crime’ and ‘guilty’ in human terms , well caught out .

Not sure if thats what you mean by guilt , definitely recognition of doing the naughty thing and knowing it .

So is guilt a moral argument humans have in their head ?

and animal beings having compassion for other beings boundaries and feeling , also having their own .

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/201802/dogs-and-guilt-we-simply-dont-know

The study referred to in this article actually determined that the "look" we perceive as guilt in a dog is actually just the dog's anticipation of our reaction to their action.

We humans forget that dogs see the world differently than we do. A dog who "steals your spot" on the couch or chews your shoes or eyeglasses, or steals your dinner, etc, is most likely not feeling guilty - simply because they don't see their behavior as hurtful to you.

But that doesn't mean they don't or can't feel guilt. But we have to consider it under their terms not ours.

You would probably be better off asking a child for an answer with fresh eyes than a scientist or psychologist who has built layers and layers of obscuring evidence which is the trend of the times .(bullshit)

maybe employ people with autism , down syndrome , and children and watch the resulting revelations in interacting with dogs .
That innocence (inner sense) , you have seen it in real life and in movies before the kid just gets it.

you know what thought thought ? thought thought his feet were hanging out the end of the bed so he got out to have a look .

A bit like scientifically pulling a car apart to see how it works using a pre conceived filing system to prove it indeed fits the existing filing system , then coming up with evidence to prove that it does indeed behave like a car so therefore is a car .
Or something..........

Although I also find this stuff interesting , I feel something becomes lost in listening to experts who have mapped out a (fart) ,

and in doing so lost the essence of things function , and in doing so mislead others .

well , I don’t know who funds these people Lol .

The more I read the less I know in some( senses ).

you know what I am saying.

I love science, but it's really just a tool, IMHO. Only fifty years ago we believed the Milky Way was the extent of the universe. And now we're back to thinking that Pluto may be planet....

When I first brought home my new guy and he'd sniff the counter, it was met with a sound I make (kind of like a buzzer sound). He'd back off (and started sniffing at a respectable distance, lol).

Also, for safety reasons, when I work at the counter or the stove, I teach dogs (and kids) to keep their toes behind the line, which is the threshold of the living room/kitchen. The new guy gets that, too.

But then...temptation struck.

Last week, I saw something on the living room floor I couldn't make out and wondered aloud, more under my breath, what it was. (It looked like a napkin I might have dropped from dinner; I eat in the living room.) As I approached it, the new guy sat down and his ears went back. He'd stolen an empty food wrapper off the counter while I was in the restroom..

That, to me, was guilt. He did something he knew he shouldn't have, or at least suspected it was questionable behavior. Since I approached it thinking it was a napkin, there were no cues offered to him to make him react that way.

Until a dog knows what's expected, I don't see how a dog can produce a reaction akin to guilt...unless, I guess, if they are subjected to an owner who is always yelling, is inconsistent, hasn't given boundaries, etc....but then that identical reaction would be fear, uncertainty.

So much communication is nonverbal, especially with dogs. If I frown, it can mean I'm confused or am showing disagreement or displeasure, unless you know me or I give it context. Dogs need context. (Not sure I've adequately expressed what's in my head here.)

Years ago, a military K9 handler gave me a challenge (about context) with one of my Dutch shepherds. Sit down (rather than stand) at a distance to give commands the dog knows. He said dogs usually don't comply the first time because you're positioned outside the dog's present context. I took it a step further first time. I laid down behind the coffee table after I put him in a sit in the hallway, maybe a 10' distance. He could see most of me. I told him to down; he did. Told him to rise, he did. Then I did nonverbals (for what I can't recall) and he aced all but one.

Not all dogs will have trouble with this, but I appreciated the perspective, still use the technique, and consider the importance of context in other avenues.

I believe any good dog person worth their salt knows dogs love their people and thats where the ‘higher’ doggie self connection and communication stuff comes about .

Lucky them ! And lucky us

If you said to someone who was feeling static electricity prickling on their skin for the first time to describe it ,
You’d probably maybe get some ramblings about some physical side effects,

At the risk of sounding out there , I think dogs pick up way more subtle wavelengths than most people take the time to notice . Animals in general too.

Uh...not out there at all. There are lots of examples of this. A good one is farmers or local people of an area who know the weather is changing or some type of danger is approaching by the way the animals act.

I once had a dog who would take cover several minutes before a thunderstorm rolled in. Had another dog who would go in circles to alert me that the oil in a pan on the stove was about to hit its smoke-point. (He had learned the smoke detector would go off and didn't like it, so he must also have learned--associated--the smell of the oil just before the oil would smoke.)

I'm out of my depth with notions of canine guilt. If my dog has a need to feel guilty I reckon that it's my fault for not having done enough to prevent the problem, or remove the temptation. Maybe that's because Beagle owners accept that the breed comes with a reputation for greed and mischief. I haven't had a destructive Beagle, so I must have either been careful - or lucky.

Guilt is this sense means:
a feeling of deserving blame for offenses

It is an internal emotion that doesn't always come across visually.

Look at humans. When I worked retail, I was often brought in to witness the interaction between the store security and people caught stealing. Often, the person cried during the process. But when security left the room, the person most often made a comment about how much trouble they would be in. They rarely, if ever, voiced being sorry for the theft or deserving of the punishment. Their reaction of tears was based not on the feeling that they did wrong and deserved to be punished, but on getting caught and facing punishment - even if they had never done this before and had no idea what would happen. Yet many went on to steal again.

But, at the same time, someone who stole and got away with it, may never do it again because they felt so much guilt over it. They may have confessed their actions as a way to appease their guilt.

So the reaction you have to being punished, or to the expectation of punishment when you are caught, is not guilt.

Or was it simply that he reacted thinking you would likely take it away from him. He showed displeasure at what he was expecting to happen.

My Tornado-dog is a kleptomaniac. He steals things whenever possible and puts them in his treasure hoard (which has moved from the hallway to the bottom of the stairs). When he grabs something, he moves very quickly and quietly to his hoard. Once there, I tell him "drop it" so I can see it. He immediately gets the "guilty" look - ears back, a bit crouched, head down, etc. If it's something he shouldn't have, I tell him "leave it". He sits there like that for a few moments until I get up and put it away. He then he moves on to something else as if nothing happened. If it's something he can have, I say "OK" and his posture immediately returns to normal.

While it appears to be guilt, the truth is he is just anticipating the chance that I will take away his found treasure. He isn't feeling guilty for his behavior because to him there is nothing wrong with finding treasures.

Guilt isn't about the repercussions, it's about how your own actions make you feel.

A reaction that only occurs because you are anticipating an outcome isn't guilt.

Think back on your life at times you felt guilty. I can say for certain that the times I felt guilt the most were the times I got away with something. I knew it was wrong, I did it anyway, and I got away with it. And the guilt ate at me.

In the week before my dad died, he was often confused. He kept asking why there were cops behind me. I kept telling him he was dreaming. The night before he died, he made the comment "it's not my dope Officer. I'm holding it for a friend". After his death, I was talking to a cousin who had worked with my dad for years. I mentioned my dad's comment. My cousin said he swore never to tell. Years before, when I was little, my dad got busted for marijuana. He had been holding it for a friend. He called my cousin and made him swear to never tell my mom. My Mom never knew - she would have told us kids laughing (my dad didn't want her finding out because of his friend).

That was guilt. My dad harbored that secret for decades. And he felt guilty because he kept it from my mom. It was no worse than any of the other stories my mom told us about things he did over the years that he got caught doing. But it was the one thing he kept secret from my mom - and that was what he felt guilty about.

Back to dogs. When we see "guilt" in our dogs, it is pretty much always in regards to a human defined "bad behavior". To a dog, eating food lying around isn't bad - it's survival. Nipping your playmate isn't wrong, it's part of playing. Peeing when you have to go potty isn't bad - it's necessary. Chewing up a pillow isn't wrong, it's amusing yourself.

Because those actions aren't bad in the mind of a dog, then they aren't going to feel guilty about doing them. It's normal and accepted dog behavior to dogs.

But that doesn't mean that dogs don't feel guilt. In a dog's world, there are behaviors that are not acceptable to dogs. Who is to say that if a given dog does that behavior, that they aren't racked with guilt. It is also just as likely that a given dog does that behavior and doesn't feel guilty.