Which breed! Discussions

Ok so maybe not all people of that era. My parents though definitely had a different view of a dogs place from how I view it and most people today view it.

Actually it’s nice to hear from you that not all dogs in olden days were treated like things (treated like things meaning treated almost like how you’d treat your car).

Having read some stuff on how abusive treatment of animals was so common in olden days (reading stuff like stories of horses whipped to death for literally stumbling while pulling heavy loads or people drowning unwanted puppies)and having lived with how my folks viewed dogs as more like a thing then a member of the family

I was under the impression that most people back then thought of dogs as just things or property as opposed to being part of the family (because of stuff I’d read combined with my own family experiences).

I’m glad to hear at least some (maybe the majority) of dogs past had better lives then I thought they had in those days.

Then again from reading stuff & school you’d also get the impression that all women back then were used abused and taken advantage of for being property and not eligible to vote (and that couldn’t have been the case for every woman so it make sense it wasn’t every dogs life either the stuff I’ve read about I mean as well as it wasn’t every dogs life when I was growing up to be treated like my parents treated ours. I know that last for as fact me cause I had friends who’s miniature poodles had full run of their house that their dogs weren’t treated like outlets by their owners/dog-parents.

*car comment comparison= you feed a car gas, wash it clean when needed, and you take it out to go places (equivalent of a dog walk sort of).

I don’t think like that that’s just the best way I could explain how I think they thought of dogs (my parents)

for clarification of above comment:

I do not think of animals as things. When I get my dog eventually it will be a true family member to me ( it won’t be just a pet or property to me)

just don’t want anyone reading to think my views are the same as my parents about animals and stuff (hence the clarification note here).

I agree. My Mom had fond memories of her grandparents' dog. He was a house dog and very good. They were born in the 1880-1890s. The photo album of my grandmother's family back to the 1910s was filled with animals. The majority of photos included a dog, cat, horse or even cow, along with family. And on the back of each photo was the name of each person AND animal.

And there are people today who think of dogs as an outside object - never in the house, never interacted with, just meant to live in the yard.

As I said none of my dogs was perfect. Moose-dog always wanted to jump on you - we settled on a compromise. He would jump up and just before his feet touched you, he would turn sideways. I never was able to stop the initial jump up, but he knew not to touch.

The obedience trainer we took the dogs to last month does advanced obedience and competes. His dobie stays right at his side and stares at him the entire time they walk - waiting for that cue. For me, that extreme isn't necessary for the average dog. My dogs walk beside me when I give the command, but they are taking in their surroundiings also. Our walks are meant to be ejoyable for all of us.

I mentioned my akita. When I took him for a walk the first time, my dad and I took him around the block. At one corner, there were flowers planted right at the edge of the sidewalk. To watch him as he literally smelled each and every flower with this wonder in his eyes. It made me realize that animals see beauty too. Why force them to stare at me when they can see flowers and such?

I say relax on your goals. Start slow. Volunteer and take some shelter dogs out for life experiences. Offer to take one through a beginner obedience class. Get a feel for a "pet trained dog". Then you can decide whether you want to do more when you get your own dog.

I'll add that showing can be expensive. The entry fees, the travel. Most clubs only hold shows one to three times a year and often use the same judges. So, to reach the champion levels, you need to go to other club shows. And they may be hundreds of miles away. I remember my dad leaving the house at 4 am in order to get to show for an 8 am ring call. Many buy RVs so they can overnight at the show site. If you want to go all the way, you need to do national shows which could mean traveling as far as BC. With a big dog, air travel is difficult and may be restricted during summer months. Car travel means finding and staying at pet friendly hotels. Even pet friendly hotels may charge you up to an additional $30 per night for your dog.

Beginning obedience class for 4 weeks (4 1-hour classes) cost me $160 per dog. I am considering taking Tornado-dog to a pre-agility class - 7 1-hour classes for $140. If you really want to go advanced, you will want to get a lot of your own equipment so you can train the other 6 days a week and after the classes end.

I get what your saying.

I think I will have to volunteer once they start allowing new people to become volunteer helper dog handlers again.

I was considering it when COVID happened. and all the shelters around here stopped accepting volunteers to help out so that I couldn’t.

once they start accepting volunteers I will most like do that (voluntarily help out with dogs). At least until I can get one (like I said way back in the thread ( I think I did) I don’t want to start a family WW3 type situation so can’t get one yet (but not too long in the near future I will be able to because the person who’d turn it into WW3 is 97)

Besides it’ll give me my dog fix. Ever since covid I’ve been sorely missing the days when we had ranger and lady for company (when I was chillin & or playing with ranger ) and the comfort lady gave by listening to me talk to her about stuff (not that I didn’t miss those days before but since COVID the missing has kinda ramped up a thousand fold compared to before covid)

The longest I went without a dog was 1 year when I first moved away from home. The next was after my golden died - I went 6 months before getting another dog.

The shortest was whwn my neurotic psychotic shepherd died. She died during the night on a Tuesday. I stayed home from work Wednesday. Thursday when I came home from work, I called my Mom and said "I can't take it. There was no shepherd whine or shriek when I came home tonight. It was silence. I need a dog. That Sunday, I adopted Dog.

Cat-dog came two weeks after I lost Moose-dog and Bat-dog.

You keep saying "olden days" and things like "most people back then". Yes, my parents were born in 1909. I was born in 1942 and our dog was adopted from the shelter probably around 1950/52. That is not back in the dark ages. That is in living memory.

As for horses and carts, yes, during the war and for a few years afterwards, some things were delivered by horse and cart - I well remember the stables where the horses that pulled the milk carts were kept. And the stables where the horses that pulled the coal carts were kept. But those horses were not ill treated.

Please do not judge what happened during my childhood to what you read in books about how some people treated animals 100 years before I was born, because there is no comparison.

Malka:

Malka. Peace? I didn’t mean to upset you or offend you.

Toedtoes:

it’s been a long long time for me since our family had a dog(over 10 years). And I still miss having a dog. I’ll tell you this, you don’t ever really stop missing the ones that died and at least in my case (not moms obviously) you never stop wanting to have such pure spirits as dog around when there gone no matter how many years go by in the interim. My mom lives with me & I look after her (she’s a lucky one to not have been in a nursing home when COVID hit given what happened in them here ). She doesn’t want another dog and I have to respect that (plus it’d be kinda hard taking care of both at the same time) but I’m still researching for when I can get a dog again.

I think your suggestion of volunteering is a good idea for me to do hopefully the shelters will start accepting volunteer help again soon. They likely will soon but the Province is worrying about a fourth wave of covid so it may be a while til they start taking volunteers at shelters and rescues again.

I completely understand that, they don’t want the staff or dogs put at risk and I heard that dogs and cats can get it but I’m not really sure on the details of that, but since humans definitely can get it I understand them not wanting to have new people around just in case.

Timed out on me.

Malka

sorry to offend. I used olden days not derogatory or denigrating but because at least the stories my parents told me about when they were growing up in rural Ontario Canada made it feel like they grew up in another world with them not having electricity going to school on cutters in the winter going to school in 1 room schoolhouses where all 8 grades were taught at the Same time, nuns smacking knuckles with rulers, party phone lines where all the neighbours shared 1 phone line no television it all sounded so different like they came from another planet growing up and sounds strange to me now to think of people growing up that way but I wasn’t meaning to offend by calling it olden days.

To me those things stories sounded so strange that it was like they were telling me they lived in pioneer days like in pioneer village or grew up on another planet.

pioneer village is a reacreation park thing you pay money to go I to see how people lived in pioneer days complete with costumes blacksmiths the whole deal by the way and whenever they talked about growing up the only thing I could equate it to was to my visit to pioneer village so I used olden days for back them because I couldn’t think of any other term for it when I was writing my comments.

Also because sounding so strange like pioneer days I sorta took it to be like they lived in pioneer days which was almost like they were living in Elizabethan or the Middle Ages times or something with coal oil lamps with no electricity no fridges no television horse cutters party phone lines out houses instead of indoor plumbing and one room schools that I guess I used an offensive terminology without meaning it to offend (I wish I had found a different phrasing though).

I know it wasn’t that long ago really. That it less then a hundred years ago so I’m sorry my choice of wording offended and upset you (no excuse but I was carrying the baggage of childhood equating 1920s no tech with pioneers and how people lived in the middle ages).

Re. Dogs fixing their attention on the handler and not being able to appreciate their surroundings.
Dogs are perfectly able to distinguish between 'working' body language and being relaxed in their environment. In fact, it is essential that dogs have sufficient downtime and are able to be themselves as they are only working dogs for a small percentage of their lives.
My Eddie behaves no differently to any mischievous normal dog until I crook my arm into the 'Collie Cramp' position, when he will assume the head-up and watchful position. He can also recognise the looser contact, and more military style of Working Trials, and to him, Heelwork to Music is just a succession of highly rewarding tricks strung together. Dogs really come to life when they see their props come out, and seasoned performers recognise the music they have used for routines, long after the event.
My Eddie is now 13 but has actually just won a portable dog showering kit for the best trick - which I recycled from a routine that he learned six years ago. Unfortunately I can't seem to upload the video, but we named it Covid Alert Dog.
I fake a sneeze, and he runs over and grabs a handkerchief from my pocket and presents it to me. (My friend said it would have been better to have used a face mask - perhaps next time!).

Malka I ran out of edit time so.. last bit…

I’ll probably encounter someone who thinks that way about how I grew up myself (without cell phones ) and they be like how did you live or something. They won’t mean to offend. Just like I didn’t mean to make it seem like I was disrespecting the past. It’s Just someone (me) thoughtlessly saying something not realizing it could be taken as disrespectful ( and it’ll be the same thing if someone is like you grew up without cell phones how did you live/survive to me someday)

@CaroleC I agree with what you say. My point was more that if you are just looking to have a pet, that handler focused attention isn't really necessary. If the dog competes or works, then that handler focused attention becomes an important factor.

As you point out, your dogs distinguish between "working" and "casual" and adjust accordingly. They have a definite division between those. Police dogs do the same - they understand the difference between work and play. For competition or working dogs, that focus is an important part. It keeps the dog focused on his job and watching for your cues.

For my dogs, there is no "work" function. They are always in "casual" mode - so training them to focus solely on me is not necessary. For most pet dogs that holds true.

I get it, a pet dog doesn’t have to have a UD title.

So what are the easiest to train not too hyper but alert watchdog breeds weighing in between 30 (13 &1/2 kg) and 60 lbs (27 & 1/4 kg) that don’t require a lot of trips to a groomer to stay looking good

although I don’t mind the looks of poodle the amount you have to spend on haircuts is unappealing to me so I think poodles are off the table.

I’d rather learn how to hand strip my dog then pay a lot for hair cuts but that said the easier care the better (by easier I mean the breed just needs brushing or combing through to avoid mats).

So…medium breeds with average hair care needs that make good watchdogs and might deter a baddie suggestions anyone?

Toedtoes you mentioned Begians before (I know they’re bigger then I’m desiring) any other breeds?

some things I like/ don’t like breeds wise:

I do adore terrier breeds zest for life, I’ve never seen a hound I didn’t like ( they have nice body shapes hound do). I like the looks of English bulldogs (I’ve heard they’re stupid and hard to train though). I hate the looks of French Bulldogs and Boston Terriers.

I’m neutral on boxers (their looks aren’t bad though any I ever met were bouncy as all get and continually jumped over their owners fences to escape) I do like their body’s build.

I love the looks of the German, Dutch and Belgian shepherd breeds and and am almost gaga over the looks of Doberman Pinscher, German Pinscher, Miniature Pinschers, Manchester terriers, Toy Manchester terriers and German Hunting Terriers (Deutsch Jagdterriers) looks. I’ve always liked that Black and Tan color with the sleek glossy coat they (excluding the Jagdterrier) have.

I don’t like toy breeds size wise (it may be all in my head but I think their too delicate and fragile). I once encountered a Silky I liked it but am not big on Yorkies long coats or the shag look of the Australian, cairn or westies have.

So anyways … Have any medium sized breed recommendations with moderate care coats that learn obedience well and have some built in sense to them?

I’ll probably try to volunteer with breeds/breed-crosses of the breeds you suggest once they start accepting volunteers to help with animal shelters and such again.

You can't go wrong with a mixed breed.

You can groom a poodle yourself. A pair of clippers and a basic "puppy cut" and you're set. Not any more difficult than hand stripping or grooming a shepherd with an undercoat.

A smooth coated fox terrier will give you the terrier exuberance with the easier coat. Terriers in general are fast learners but that is countered with their tenaciousness.

Border collies are a good choice. Shelties tend to be timid so lots of socialization is very important, but they are great midsize dogs.

I fostered a lab bassett mix - she was an awesome dog! She was less obsessive than a full lab and not as stubborn as a bassett.

Beagles have tons of character. They are very scent oriented and that can result in the following a scent cross country without ever lifting their nose off the ground. . They tend to be talkers more than barkers. Ow woo woo woo wooo. Bat-dog was shepherd/chow/sharpei/corgi/beagle/boxer/german shorthair - personality wise, she exuded a lot of beagle and it was adorable.

Speaking of, german shorthairs are great dogs.

Setters can be a bit hyper, but they are great dogs too.

If you want a fun challenge jack russells (parsons) are awesome. They need a lot of mental stimulation, but they are just so happy about life.

I suggest you volunteer and just work with as many dogs as possible. Attend a dog show and just wander around looking at the different breeds. Visit your local dog park and watch the various dogs playing. Ask owners questions about their dogs' personalities and how easy they were to train. You'll be able to narrow the field down better that way. You'll end up with a list based on actual interactions. Then we can help you fine tune that list further.

I've been smiling at your comment that you want a larger dog so that you won't trip over it

My present dog is a Border Terrier. I've never tripped over her once. My collie however was asleep in the hall a few years ago now and I tripped over him going into the kitchen. Broken ankle for my trouble

My family did not have a refrigerator [or an "ice box"] until well after the war, probably nearer 1950.
My family did not have a telephone, even a shared line, until probably after 1950.
My family never had a car all their lives.
My family did not have a television until well into the 1950s - the very first time I saw anything on television was at a relatives house - a room full of people crowded round a 9 inch screen television watching the Queen's coronation in 1953.
My older sister went to school in a little church hall round the corner because building stopped just before the war so the first school in the area was not built until after the war. It was built just before my twin and I were old enough to go to school. The school was not fully finished until again, around 1950.

This was not in the 1920s. This was in the 1940s and 1950s. And it was not out in the sticks either, it was just on the edge of London. And we were not a poor family either, my father was a London County Council government officer and we were considered to be quite well off. My parents had bought their own, brand new home, and we even had an indoor bathroom and lavatory.

It is also rather distressing for us "old" folk to hear you keep saying that you will not be able to have a dog now "(but not too long in the near future I will be able to because the person who’d turn it into WW3 is 97)". Not too long in the near future? It sounds like you cannot wait for your mother to die so that you can have your wish to have a dog.

I am now out of this conversation and will place you on Ignore.

Your quite welcome to ignore me.

To address your comments anyway:
Its not accurate saying I can’t wait til she dies.

I’d prefer her to live forever (I know she can’t obviously). if only she respected me as the adult I am and wasn’t always telling me she’s old and going to die soon and wasn’t always saying about how she’s co-owner of the house so I can’t do this or that or the next or else and have to do the other.

I do love mom, her but sometimes I resent her for talking down to me as if I was a toddler and not an adult and also for her daily negativity where she tells me how she’s going to die soon (and what will I do after she’s gone).

I wish she’d change be a positive person instead of a negative one but I know that’s not gonna happen (but try living with and helping someone out who multiple times a day says they will die soon and is negative about everything).

I know she’s probably suffering depression but she won’t deal with it (her dr gave her nerve pills she wont take because she read the side effects she says).

I guess her saying she’ll die soon kinda has affected me in a way, the way being that I have realized she won’t live forever and one day she’ll be gone (not that I ever thought she’d live forever). And it came out in what I wrote (as well as some other stuff with her).

Me I’ve always sorta hoped she’ll live to 120 or longer even and beat the world age record (mostly when she’s having a good day and hasn’t told me 10 or 20 times that day how she’ll die soon).

She’s not mentally unwell enough for me to take over get her committed against her will and if she won’t take her nerve pills (or depression ones- whichever they are) I can’t go force them down her throat against her will either. So I’m stuck hearing her say “I’m going to die soon I’m 97 do you think I’ll live forever how will you manage without me” as well as you can get a dog after I’m gone. The I’m going to die soon____without me” is a direct quote of stuff she’s saying multiple times a day nearly every single day. It sorta gets to me.

So ignore away I’m tired of trying to explain myself to you I’m done addressing you too now

Side note for everyone reading this (please read to the bottom of this comment):

Mom is not just negative about herself she’s also quite negative to me telling me stuff like how after she dies I’ll lose the house because she’s not going to be there to make sure I don’t get tricked out of it or have relatives take it from me.

why do I stay and look after her if she’s like this? I’m her only child and right or wrong I feel obligated to look after her because there’s no one else who could take on the job of helping her out daily ( and I promised dad when he was dying of cancer in 1999 I would and my word is my bond ).

I didn’t mean for it to sound like I want her dead so I can get a dog and I’m not looking for pity I was just trying to explain myself and the reason it came out sounding like I wanted her gone to get a dog when I don’t because I felt like I was being taken wrong and felt kinda like I was under attack here and if I didn’t try explain more people would jump in an attack because of misunderstanding me.

I understand that. In the last few years of his life, my dad was frustrated and depressed. He realized that the doctor couldn't give him something to make him better. He had always favored my siblings over me and spoke very negatively towards me for most of my life. Once when I voiced that to him he told me if I thought that, I was an idiot - he did actually catch his faux paux and for a few months tried to be nicer, but it didn't last.

But for all his negativity towards me, when he wanted something, he called me. Even as a kid - if he wanted a cup of coffee, he would holler at me to get it, even if my siblings were sitting right next to him.

After a friend of his visited while my younger sibling was "helping" him a few weeks before he died, I realized that he treated me poorly because he could. My siblings were impatient, mean and borderline abusive during his last couple years. But he couldn't yell at them because they'd walk out on him and he'd be alone. They yelled ultimatums and threats to him daily. He knew that no matter what he said to me, I wouldn't walk away and I would be nice to him (I had proven that my whole life) and patient. So I got all his anger, frustration and fear. It was a difficult time and there was a part of me that wanted it to be over.

I'll add that he died two nights before my siblings were moving him in with the younger one. I was staying with him that night and he had been asking me a bunch of questions about my sibling's house, etc. I believe he realized that if he moved in with her, that he'd be subject to her abuse with no reprieve, and she would have refused to let his friend and sister and nephews visit him. He died in the early hours while I was with him. While we had never been close and he had always treated me poorly, I was glad it was me there that night. His last night was peaceful and without threats and meanness.

During those last years, I would be asked why I stuck around when he was so mean to me. I told them "because he's dying". Even though I was his least favorite child, he was there when I was growing up, so I owed it to him to be there when he was dying.

People always attack the ones they love and the ones who help them the most. It's the only time that someone who is struggling can vent their feelings without a massive fallout