Siberian Husky off lead walking??? Controversial

Just to explain when I'm talking about animal aggressive dog being muzzed I'm talking about pet dogs that will actively seek to kill another animal be it another dog, cat, squirrel, duck etc. Obviously plenty of dogs will chase wildlife but there a big difference between chasing and killing! Yes I know they'll be plenty that will disagree with this but I'm giving my opinion.

Yes Dawn I do strongly disagree with what you do with your dogs and others that use dogs to kill other animals. I understand and have faith that the other rescue know what they are doing with their Greyhound. Our rescue however has a strict policiy that all dog aggressive dogs are kept on longlines and muzzled, as would an accomplished wildlife or pet killer.

Well done onqsiberians for contributing to this thread I imagine many people who allow their huskies off lead have been scared away. I feel ashamed at how rude people have been towards you, people will twist what you say as they have towards me. I personally would like to say a huge well done to you for spending the time training your huskies a safe and trustworthy recall enabling them to enjoy a life of off lead exercise :smt041 :smt041 :smt041

Im only a feww years into the world of Siberian huskies 6 to be exact..........and i have had a lot of valuable and sensible information and help from bluesandtwos she is extremely experienced IMO......and if i ever needed any help with my sibes she would be my first point of contact to question this womans knowledge of this breed is totaly wrong! im sorry but i have read this thread with great interest and im new here ..but i do have an opinion on this ..........and IMHO.........i would NEVER let my dogs run of lead..........as they have an extremley high prey drive to..............they run quite happily of lead in a very large enclosed area..........as far as them being "Dangerous dogs" well thats just ridiculous mines would kill a rabbitt ,cat ,bird infact one of mines just recently killed a seagull........and they are big birds.......but would lick you to death afterwards.......this debate is turning into a right slanging match and there is no need for name calling etc....etc......we are all adults are we not?? we can discuss this maturely can we not?? if not then i think everyone should just agree to disagree ?

My dogs have been trained to recall beautifully...........but if a rabbitt crossed there path ..........Woooooooooooosh and they would be off and you could recall them until you were blue in the face .........!! so IMO i prefer my dogs ON lead when out and about and i let them of up to 5 times a day in the enclosed area which includes grass trees and a whole lot of fun for them.......so my dogs are happy and well balanced my dogs dont seem in the least bit bothered being on their leads when they have to be .....i really dont see what all the fuss is about to be honest ?? if folks prefer to keep their dogs on the lead then why shouldn't they?? as long as the dogs can run free at some points to keep them happy ..??wheres the harm in this?? or have i totaly got all this thread wrong?? ( i am blonde) lol

I must admit, my reaction to the dogs on the Onqsiberians website was exactly the same as Lyn's - some of these are GSD's or GSD crosses. However, the breeder claims that they are purebred Sibes and we must take her word for it. I would ask however, how far do you have to go from the breed standard before a dog ceases to represent that breed, irrespective of its bloodlines. Most breeders strive to attain both breed type and working attitude. In Siberians, this means, in shorthand terms - looking like a Sibe and having a hard-wired desire to run in harness. If you (a) ignore breed type; and (b) breed for other characteristics - recall ability, Family protection, Seizure alert etc etc; it is hardly surprising that within a few generations the dogs you are breeding cease to resemble the "breed" they represent.
Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer to have Siberians that look like Siberians - without the floppy/enormous ears, corkscrew tails, and staffie front ends.

JMHO

Mick

Just so I understand this then, if a Husky follows/displays the breed characteristics/traits as published on the Dogsey website:

"Generally friendly with other dogs (he will however retaliate quickly and very effectively if attacked ) his amiability does not extend towards other pet animals, wildlife or livestock. The Siberian has a very strong prey drive and is a clever, quick, and efficient hunter and killer."

(Sorry to be a bore but I actually want to get this right so I'm not acccused of not reading it properly or understanding it) - Are you saying that this in your opinion is "animal aggressive" - just want to be clear 'cos I'm confused as my Huksy does follow the breed trait as quoted above, or are you going to tell me he's abnormal for being representitive of his breed? And, therefore, are you implying that in your opinion for following this breed trait he is one of the "pet dogs that will actively seek to kill another animal"?
Just want to be clear about this;-)

ANNUK:

a clearly wrong interpretation of a breeds behaviour here!. Agression: behaviour directed at another animal/person due to dominance/fear issues.
Instinct: a natuarally ocurring action brought about by the desire to survive and thrive.

The chasing and killing of other animals by Huskies is the latter, It is NOT aggression. they are not chasing that animal just to attack it, they fully intend to hunt down, kill and eat it (As any sibe owner whos dog has caught a rabbit/bird etc will tell you). An animal caught through agression is not generally eaten.
likewise, an agressive attack is generally 'full on' teeth and fur flying, unlike the stealth approach the husky uses to hunt down his 'prey' this is what is ment when talking about Prey drive, a trait hardwired into the breed. and no, not all huskies will hunt and kill other animals, but the MAJORITY will. If you actually look at what the literature says about Huskies and aggression, you will find a common theme: they are NOT a confrontational breed
Agression: No
Prey drive: Oh yes!

Unfortunately, no-one has yet managed to rewire their brain to realise they will get their 2 meals a day without having to hunt down and kill it.

OOOOOOOOOH..... I think I see the point of confusion... The dog in the Hearing Dog videos IS a GSD!! I worked with that dog from Midwest Assistance dogs... however, he was fixed when we got him, and played no part in my kennel...

As for the latter comment... I much prefer a dog that is capable than a cookie cutter dog from the show world. All you have to do to get cookie cutter dogs from any purebred who is bred through outcrossing within the breed, is to breed to a dog that is inbred.

My dogs tend to be great with little animals...but no joke, if you go to the pics from the 2004 litters http://www.onqsiberians.com/2004_litters.htm the dogs and the cat all fed each others babies.. so I do not think it is normal for the breed... It should be in the future though.

Thank you

Just thought i would add this

In the UK its illegal to have ANY dog off lead in a public place............well thats wat i was informed !

And to onqsiberians:
* at no point have i used the word "Mutts". I merely pointed out the fact that they are a very great departure from the breed standard, so much so they are resembling another breed far more than their own.
* No, I didnt read all your website. Lets just say i found it 'very hard on the eyes'. I tend to prefer readable text and logical layouts.
* "my sire bred my bitch, and I don't cull". so you are clearly so knowledgable, you never heard of misalliance jabs? and also so responsible, you allowed the sire to catch a bitch, who by decent breeders standards, is way to young (and also went on to have another litter from her the following year)
* you have "pure race lines".......And???

finally, you may want to refrain from the personal insults, as statements like "mentally stunted" are not only slanderous but also discriminatory comments, which no forum with any level of decency would allow. you know NOTHING about my level of education (as you have clearly NOT read all of this thread) and should you choose to continue your insults, I will personally bring your conduct to the attention of the moderators.

Hi Emma

It's not actually illegal (but some would like it to be so), but in certain places ie parks etc there are local bylaws concerning keeping your dogs on as lead, and large landowners ie the National Trust ask you to kindly "keep your dog on a lead at all times" (due to grazing livestock and also in the interests of other non-dog walkers). I walk in National Trust parkland/woodland nearly every morning and I always see other dog owners ignoring this and yes walking their dogs through fields of sheep off lead, so who is the only dog owner who takes any notice of the signs, me the Husky owner - I never walk my dog in a field containing livestock.
Personally - IMHO - I think that there are number of public places where dogs should not be allowed off lead, as many annoy not only other dogs, but other non-dog people as well who have every right to enjoy an open space without dogs running around loose.

I wasn't actually referring to the video, I was referring to the major faults (in terms of the breed standard) visible on some of the dogs on your "Meet the Pack" page.

The problem for me with your comments about "cookie cutter" dogs (by which I assume you mean dogs which all look more or less the same) is that if dogs are bred over generations to do a particular job of work (ie pull lightly loaded sleds at moderate speeds in arctic conditions over long distances) then they will (and should) end up looking pretty much the same (coat and eye colour excepted). The job you are expecting your dogs to do is not the job that they have been bred for over generations and, because of that their "look" - their "Breed type" is not important to you and you feel you can put down "cookie cutter" dogs.
Those of us who are a bit anal-retentive and would like to maintain the breed as a long-distance,arctic sled dog (rather than change it into a protection dog, guard dog, seizure alert dog etc etc) know that the "look" of the Siberian, although very attractive, is in fact in no way cosmetic. Every aspect of the Siberian's physical aspect is there for a reason - to enable it to survive and prosper as an arctic long distance sled dog.
Your aims are different and that is fair enough, but your non-"cookie cutter" dogs are deviating significantly from the breed standard for the Siberian Husky. You may say that this is irrelevant and the breed standard is pants - fair enough! But in that case, why bother to call your dogs Siberian Huskies?


One final point - you accuse show dogs of being inbred. All Siberian Huskies are inbred to a certain degree- how could they avoid being so. Of all the Siberian dogs imported into the US in the early years of the 20th Century, the vast majority were neutered. Only a small handful of these original dogs were entire and it is from this tiny handful that all purebred Siberians are descended - yours as much as mine. Unless of course, some of the Siberians were outcrossed with other breeds, which would give them hybrid vigour, but which would no longer make them Siberians................

Mick

Ah thank you for that

I too walk my husky and sisters jack russell in parks and such that are owned by the council and authorities.......i also see people not sticking to the keep your dog on a lead rule too..........and funnily enough im the only one that sticks to the rule............the worst thing is if you dont have your dog on a lead then how can you control it yes it may be fine with other dogs and children........but who is to say that the dog off the lead for some reason or other takes a dislike to a dog just as people do with people too........then how is the owner gonna stop their dog from attacking my puppy which is the size of most older dogs round here???? My pup knows no better at the moment to him everything and everyone is a play buddy

i know its going slightly off the walking off lead thing but it is the same thing really..............you have no proper control over a dog that is walking off lead well not the control you have over them when they are on a lead anyways

I think you will find the abbreviation for inches is "
'13' is to say that you say you have 13 dogs but only 9 adults are shown.
From what is written on your website you clearly have no comprehension of genetics (and yes I have studied it at degree level) your breeding policies are appaling and judging by your remarks on here you should take a long look at yourself before commenting on the intelligence of others and insulting them.

If I weren't already convinced not to let my siberians off lead then I certainly am now.

Unfortunately Mick onqsiberians has very little by way of pedigree details on their site to refer to, but you can bet there are some common links between the ancestry of their dogs, and yours and mine back there somewhere.
as for inbred, a definition of inbred would be mating brother and sister littermates, not something generally done in the UK at least. Line breeds possibly, generally by expert breeders, with many years experience, who have rigerously researched the backgrounds of the dogs involved in terms of health, temperament and conformation, a far cry indeed from a mating based on colour preference.
Mine are certainly anything but inbred as together with their UK heritage, we also have among our gene pool american, canadian, russian and continental european bloodlines.

I really dont think you understand Anne, that most "prey driven" dogs that chase, if they catch, there is a damn good chance they will attack it too! I really strongly disagree with you here. Im not sure how much experience you have with this type of dog, Greyhounds, working Terriers etc.. and the very first thing I teach is STAY!! which means stop, but on the one occasion they dont listen, the go and if they catch it, they kill it! I am sure that any ex-racer that chases something will kill if they catch, my boss had her Poodle killed in this manner.
Dawn.

This is a quote from Bob Thomas's "Where did they come from, and what did they look like":
"Seppala has written that he imported Siberian dogs from all parts of Siberia. He had this to say about the dogs from various areas, “I have imported dogs from many parts of Eastern Siberia. I have found that they vary somewhat in size - the largest ones I got from Petropavlovsk and Kamchatka - some weighed 65 pounds. Dogs from Anadir River were slightly smaller - the largest approx between 55 and 60 pounds. Around East Cape they were smaller, averaging about 45 pounds. Kolima River, they would go about 60 pounds, more or less - I am referring to males. That is as near as I can remember now.” (1949)"

So actually, they were never the single village Chukchi dogs that they were made out to be.... The dogs came from all over. That is why you can notice all of the different directions that were taken and the resulting looks that came after.... What is more is that the migratory pattern of the Chukchi is still in debate.. so even if they bred them for boo-ku years... The Chukchi themselves encourage their women to breed with males from other tribes... why would they not do this with their dogs??

To learn more about the true nature of the Chukchi, I have some links on this page:
http://www.onqsiberians.com/migration_of_chukchi_and_their_d.htm

I also have some other info on different views of the evolution of the Siberian as a breed on this page:
http://www.onqsiberians.com/siberian_husky_a_logical_look.htm

My Siberians have lines from Norway and Germany, as well as being carriers of a high % of Seppala lines. So they are more outcrossed than let's say a breeder who swears by a certain "line".

COOKIE CUTTER... what most people do not know is that in mice, rabbits, and almost every other domesticated animal, the more white an animal has on it's coat, denotes weakness..like it or not.... this does not refer to solid whites, which are not white at all... but to dogs wih white markings... there are links to support this on this page:
http://www.onqsiberians.com/importance_of_full_pigment_i.htm

This is how genetically you can breed for Althetic and performance traits... So I am saying... the look you can get back with inbreeding... but not the brains... Gene aging is deadly when used wrong... If you are not breeding a dog that can do ANY job... you are contributing to the pet over-population crisis and little more... A dog that only LOOKS like a Siberian will doom the breed for sure..
So while breeding for color is not the only concern.. I wish to produce a genetically prepotent and healthy animal by means that may escape you... but it is researched and done carefully.....

Maybe onqsiberians would like to purchase and read the book 'Genetics of the dog' by Malcom b. wills.....as some of us already have...and then some!

just a suggestion as She asks us to refer to a husky genetics website already mentioned as being a good few years out of date, and lacking in research-based rigour

COOKIE CUTTER... what most people do not know is that in mice, rabbits, and almost every other domesticated animal, the more white an animal has on it's coat, denotes weakness..like it or not.... this does not refer to solid whites, which are not white at all... but to dogs wih white markings... there are links to support this on this page:
http://www.onqsiberians.com/importan..._pigment_i.htm

complete nonsense

albino animals are often weaker but animals with more white in their coat are usually those from northern countries. Pigmented coat does not protect from the sun. They have a thick double coat for that. Infact dark coats cause them to heat up faster in the sun and are more likely to suffer heat stroke, a major disadvantage in dogs that are bred to run over huge distances. Take a look at polar bears, arctic foxes and northern arctic wolves all have a large amount of white in their coats.