Collie Safe Meds Questions

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but not to dogs, although I have been away from Collies for a while. I have Riley, who will be 4 months old this Friday. I've had him about 5 weeks now (he was a rehome rescue) and he just finished his last round of shots. While I was at the vet's office I went ahead and requested a collie safe heartworm preventative because I know that collies can't (or shouldn't) have Ivermectin (and Riley hasn't been tested yet for the MDR-1 gene.) It was mainly the vet tech that I dealt with, but I felt like I had to educate her about it. Riley received Sentinel. They also tried to push a flea/tick pill on us and sent us home with Simparica. Well, I took the time to read the packaging and the next morning I was calling the vet because it specifically says "not for use on puppies under 6 months of age" and something to the effect of severe neurological damage. Needless to say I didn't use it and returned it and have been in a bit of limbo since. The Sentinel protects against fleas, but not ticks (I was curious as to why they tried to push two flea treatments on him when he didn't even have fleas.) Anyway, I digress.

I would like to protect him against future fleas/ticks, but I want to do it safely. He's going to be my hiking buddy and he doesn't need any nasty little hitchhikers. Have there been any advancements in collie safe medication? It's been about 15 years since I've owned a collie.

Thanks!

Hello Beverly - welcome to you and Riley to Breedia from Tikva and from me

You are correct with regard to Ivermectin and Collies as it is a known trigger for epilepsy in both rough, smooth and BCs. I do not know anything about Simparica although of course I could look it up, but it is a product I have never heard about, but if it says "not for use on puppies under 6 months of age" and something to the effect of severe neurological damage, I would definitely avoid it. Not because of the "not for use on puppies under 6 months of age" but because of the possibility of severe neurological damage.

Regarding fleas and ticks - I always used Frontline Spot-on on both my previous two dogs and was happy with it - even my severely epileptic Pereg [the one in my avatar] and she had not reaction to it. Not did it cause her epilepsy in the first place. I tried to use the Spot-on on Tikva, my current little dog, as her coat is so very short and it was impossible to get the Frontline onto her actual skin, although when she was very young I used the Frontline spray and rubbed it in.

She now has a Bravecto chewable tablet once every three months [when she has her Parkworm shot] - we do not have heartworm here so I do not have to worry about that. Tikva is a Dachshund/Minpin cross, both breeds having epilepsy in their health problems, so I am very careful as to what shots/preventative treatment she has. There are lots of horror tales on Google about Bravecto, just as there are on about every preventative product, but I have not seen any negative reports about it on the Epilepsy List.

One thing I would like to say - vet techs are just that. Technicians. They are qualified to do what they do but they have not had the years of training that a qualified vet has, and I would always take the advice from a qualified vet and not just a vet tech.

And - if that is Riley in your avatar - he is gorgeous! May we please have some [meaning lots] of pictures of him?

Yes, that is Riley on my Avatar picture and I will work hard to add some pictures soon. I have one particular "ugly" baby picture of him that I love because it is the day his snout was longer than his face, but it corrected quickly (thank goodness.)

I'm glad to hear that he can have Frontline. That's what we usually use on our other dogs and the foster dogs that come through.

One thing I will note is that I have been staggering his shots because they really seem to knock him down. The vet's office probably thought I was a bit weird, but I didn't want him getting 4 and 5 shots at a time so he'd get one or two and then the next week get the rest. I'm just happy that we're through the full series now. He also had his rabies and bordetella shot. Now I'm just trying to figure out when to schedule his neuter because he will be under anesthesia. I will probably get the MDR-1 gene test for him first.

Healthy puppies are happy puppies.

Beverly

Beverly, I cannot guarantee that Riley will not have a reaction to Frontline Plus - all I can say is that both Lexi and Pereg were Frontlined on the first of every month except for December and February. Lexi was not epi but Pereg had idiopathic epilepsy from when she was two years and three months old. I carried on with Frontline, her yearly boosters and rabies shots, and none of them triggered a seizure, not that we ever found a trigger, and of course all dogs are different. She was a mutt of no known origin so no clues there.

The only reason I now give Tikva Bravecto is because I could not get Frontline onto her skin because her coat is so short. And it is more convenient with giving her a yum yum every three months rather than monthly Frontline. If you do use Frontline have a look at this, which has exactly the same ingredients but not the trade name, therefore is better value. I used that for the last year of Pereg's life and it was as effective as Frontline was.

https://il.iherb.com/pr/21st-Centur...3-44-lbs-3-Applicators-0-045-fl-oz-Each/52487

[If it come up in Shekalim ignore that - you can just change it to Dollars]

I cannot answer about neutering but I know from people on Breedia that large breeds should not be neutered until they are fully grown - I do not know how that puts a rough Collie though. And I have only had bitches, small/barely medium at that.

Anyhow, I eagerly await lots of pictures of Riley!

I will definitely do my research before I make a final decision. Although I don't have any human children, I am somewhat overprotective of my fur babies...

So, I am going to attempt to post Riley's ugly baby photo. His face caught up with his nose the next day. If there is a better place to post photos just point me in the right direction. I read through the announcement and help section to try to do things the correct way.

Awwww - that is such a cute picture of Riley! He is adorable and no way is that an "ugly baby photo. Just a picture of a gorgeous puppy!

When you said "Although I don't have any human children, I am somewhat overprotective of my fur babies..." - I vividly remember reading my daughter's hospital notes when the Sister in charge of the babies' ward "accidentally [on purpose]" left her notes in her cot. The orthopaedist in charge of her had written after he first saw her at 13 months of age "fussy and over protective mother".

The problem with doing research is that sometimes it is difficult to find what you need to know, as so many information contradicts other information on the same subject. I am so lucky with Ram, my vet, and would trust him and his advice with my life [although it took him a long time to accept that I had changed from dog food for Pereg to raw feeding].

I was never overprotective of Pereg despite her epilepsy so when Ram said that her shots were OK for her I trusted him. Being epi himself he knew more about epilepsy and neurological damage than most canine neurologists. But... we gave Pereg peace on 1 April 2015 at just 6 years and 3 months old, Ram coming here at about 1am. And I am not overprotective of Tikva even though she has been with me since she was 3 weeks old and needed bottle feeding. So hard of hearing though I am, the slightest sound from her wakes me, and I guess I am probably still on seizure-watch - just in case - and I do not think that habit will ever go away.

You have to trust someone, whether it is your doctor or your vet - but in the end it is your decision for yourself and your pet whether or not to just accept what they say.

Well, I took the leap and just mailed off Riley's MDR1 test kit today. I should know in a couple of weeks what his profile is. It was $60 and well worth it I think.

Absolutely!! Better to know!

Just out of interest I looked up details of MDR1and Ivermectin was the main no-no for Collies, but fipronil and (S)-methoprene, the two active ingredients in Frontline Plus, are not on the list of drugs to avoid, so there should not be any problem or worry about using it on Riley.

Fingers crossed that his MDR1 test comes back as n/n - clear.

Boy, am I glad I did the MRD1 test!! Riley's test results came back yesterday and he is Mutant/Mutant. Poor boy!! I forwarded his test results to the vet and told them to update his file. I feel much better now though. I plan to get him neutered in a few months and I was very worried about the anesthesia. I almost lost a collie once before under anesthesia. On one hand I feel so bad for Riley, but on the other hand I am so relieved that I know for certain.

Bev

I am very sorry to hear that Riley's MRD1 test result was not what you wanted Bev - but at least now you know and so does your vet. And you will have to trust him with the anaethetic when Riley is neutered.

I think you have done a very wise thing in having your Collie DNA tested. As the owner of a non-affected breed, your post pushed me into looking into the details of this test. Though I knew that Collies and their crosses could have drug sensitivities, I was surprised at the number and variety of drugs that can be involved, and also at the implications for long haired Whippet types - presumably their long hair has been inherited through Collie bloodlines.
As a former Lurcher owner, this then got me thinking about the implications for Lurchers, the majority of which carry Collie blood, and highlights the need to be careful when giving advice on sites such as this one. It is so easy to generalise, and say what has worked for you! IMO, this has been a very valuable thread.

Oh definitely - so many drugs that can cause problems in various breeds - it is quite frightening when you think you have a healthy puppy and then discover that they carry unhealthy genes.

Gsd’s are one of the breeds affected though according to chart its 10 %
http://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/docs/librariesprovider17/default-document-library/vcplflier.pdf
I was reading on Gsd forum that Mutant/Mutant dogs can have relative adrenal insufficiency (lower basal cortisols and lower basal ACTH concentrations than dogs that do not have the MDR1 mutation) they haven't tested Mutant/Normal dogs, but they could suffer from the same issue as Mutant/Mutant dogs. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1476-4431.2006.00196.x

Drugs that causes a problem
http://atlaskennels.blogspot.co.uk/p/drug-sensitivity-in-german-shepherd-dog.html

http://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/problem-drugs

Fipronil and (S)-methoprene, the two active ingredients in Frontline Plus, are not on the list either Vee - there is no way I would recommend it if it was on either list.

Just curious as to what is your reason for neutering him?

He didn't come with papers and I have no real plans to breed him. We help out with foster dogs a lot.

As far as the test results, I'm just relieved. It's preventative, kinda like the list of toxic plants for dogs to avoid. It probably limits him a bit on what he can be treated with, but at least there are alternatives for most problems that might crop up. I'm glad there is technology out there that lets us look a little deeper into the mysteries of what lies beneath.

Bev

With large breeds it’s recommended to wait until they are at least 18/24 months old, as that's when research suggests the growth plates are closed and lack of hormones will be less detrimental to joint disorders.

Thank you. I have been trying to find a good argument to delay his neutering. My boyfriend and his mom (former collie owner) are pushing me to do it while he's young, but I've been doing some research and it's been pro and con. I came across some discussion that if its done too early they don't fill out as well (muscle definition) and the fur comes in thin and patchy. I want to give him time to fill out properly. It seems to be common practice here in the U.S. to spay or neuter as soon as possible. We see some of the foster pups that come into the house spayed and neutered as early as eight weeks old. Luckily I own my own place and his health care is my decision, so they can nag me all they want and I'll just ignore them.