Two Sires ! General Chat

We live and learn, must admit have never heard of it before but Rumor the Gsd who won best in show at Westminster has just had her first litter at 6yrs old but there were TWO sires.

As I understand it In the US, a bitch can be intentionally naturally bred or artificially inseminated by more than one stud, and once the pups are whelped, the breeder must submit the DNA for each pup so the correct sire can be identified for each pup. This can also be done in cases where a female is accidentally bred by more than one male.

Even more interesting is the German lines. ASL breeders don’t usually cross their lines like this.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...468254-marquis-can-you-stop-the-rain-v-kenlyn
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=722617-mailo-vom-kuckucksland

I have not checked the links Vee, but I wonder why the video owner has disabled the playback except on YouTube.

However, I can understand how a bitch [or a human for that matter] can be inseminated by two males during artificial insemination, but why would anyone want to do that? Because a correct DNA test would show which offspring came from which male parent.

Just thinking of two offspring, and no, I have never watched Jeremy Kyle, the two sons of Elton John were born by a surrogate using a mixture of both his and his husband's sperm, as is permitted in some clinics in the US.

But why would a dog breeder want to do this?

I would guess the reason he has done this is due to her age. I don’t know the age restrictions in the US on how old the bitch can still be bred from, but this sounds like her first litter at 6 is. Bit on the late side, she may only have yearly season or the time limit for registration. might be low, so using two sire gives him the equivalent of breeding her twice , that’s just my guess.

Would her age have anything to do with being inseminated by two sires though?

Maybe I am missing something here. If a puppy is the result of a mating by two sires, whether natural or by AI - can that puppy be registered as a pure-bred with a guaranteed pedigree?

Can't comment on the bloodlines Vee.
I think @Jackie has it spot on with the explanation - the reduced length of time available for Rumor to be productive, and the desire to try different lines. The possibility of using two sires has been discussed over here too. It may be seen a possible means of maintaining genetic diversity where a numerically small breed has only a limited number of bitches of breeding age. I guess this would be done by AI, and by permission of the KC.
Pre DNA testing, registration was permitted for puppies which are born to a bitch which has been mated by two dogs, but both sires had to be shown on all documentation. Though I am sure that this must have happened, personally, I have never seen any such documents.

I still do not understand why a puppy can be registered as pure-bred when the dam has been impregnated by two sired.

It just not does make sense.

Putting it logically, I left my husband when I was 10 weeks pregnant with my son. Neither my husband nor any other male came near me before he was born. But my son's birth certificate has his father's name on it because there was no possible way that his birth could have happened.

So how can a puppy from AI with two possible male sperm donors be a 100% - sorry - I just cannot get my head around this.

I see reading their site that she has been extensively campaigned, so as this is her first litter and time is running out, I think in rumor’s case it's to get genetic diversity.
Though I believe there's no guarantee that the pups will be from the two different sires.

@ Malka
https://breedingbusiness.com/can-dogs-have-more-than-one-father/
http://www.akc.org/dna/multiple-sired-litter/

First I must apologise for my bad spelling. But if the bitch was a maiden - who decided that her time was running out?

I have not, nor do I do not even try to click on any of those links but what I do know is that Tikva was a first and unwanted litter from her dam.

And as a KC registered breeder there was NO way I would have ever have bred a six year old maiden. Even with a rare breed, and please do not tell me that Rumor was a rare breed.

DNA testing will give definite proof of the sire of each puppy. They could then be coded with a tattoo to avoid any confusion in the future.

If the AKC follows the KC rules for registration. Rumor has only approximately one year left in which to produce another litter.

I agree, it's not ideal, but it can be difficult to decide just when to take a litter from a top winning bitch. A youthful litter could possibly have spoilt her. It is also hard to pull the plug on a lifetime of planning, and those dreams becoming reality, while you are winning top awards every month.
I'm sure Rumor has had the best attention, and the op. theatre was on standby, just in case. Mum and kids look to be doing really well.

Possibly I am reading this thread all wrong, but since when were GSDs a breed where a six year old maiden bitch had to be put through pregnancy and birth so that she might produce more prize winning dogs?

If I have mis-read and not understood why this happened, I am sorry.

In the UK you can’t register a litter from a bitch after she is eight years old, I don’t know the age limit in the US, it could be around the same.

So as this is the first litter this bitch is having and given she is already six, her breeder might be thinking, this is her one and only chance for a litter,OR she might not have regular seasons OR restrictions on time is running out .

So given she is a prize winning dog, and he would like to carry on her lines is so little time, he is using two studs so she produces two litters and gives him the diversity in seeing what she produces with two different males.

The puppies will only have one sire, for instance. She has 6 pups. DNA testing will determine if the are from stud A or stud B , the pups will not be from a mixture of both. They may all be from one stud or the other or half and half,

This will then give the breeder two litters to chose his next pup from, instead of two separate mating two years apart, which would then make the bitch 8 .

I guess he is thinking of her health and trying to get as much diversity in one go rather than putting her through two whelping 18/ 24 mths part

Agree with everything you say, It would be hard to pull er out of the ring earlier to have a litter if she was doing so well, the other option could have been surrogacy ( they do it in horses ) , it would be hard on a bitch to produce two litters With only I year between , so I think the option he has used is probably the best for him and this bitch

Thank you Jackie - I just could not get my head round this. I never bred a girl that age and all my puppies were registered with the UK Kennel Club because I know who my girls were - mine - and the sires were - my mentors. And my girls only had two litters.

And my girls only had two litters [apart from the one who did a norty with a norty boy I was looking after but we do not talk about that]

I find it interesting in that why one would choose to mate her with ‘one that's the Sire of the other male?

You know what? The whole thing just does not make sense to me although I admit to not knowing the why's and wherefores - but...

...why did the video owner delete the video unless someone clicked on it on Youtube?

And the video was promoting Royal Canin dog food.

Maybe he’s looking at line beeeding, he must like those lines and wants to fix them in his bitch,

It looks as if he might handle the younger dog (2015), but it is surprising that his hip and elbow status are listed as 'not known'. Perhaps they have an unofficial status, and were still waiting certification when this was printed. Is the younger dog proven? I couldn't see any mention of progeny. If not, that may be why they chose to 'back up' with his sire (2010, and over 60 progeny recorded).
@Malka I think the YouTube connection will purely be a financial one. They will have some sponsorship arrangement with RC, and the number of plays will be recorded as feedback. Do you not remember the days when every Crufts winner was fed on Pedigree Chum? And yes, as most people did collect their freebies, it wasn't a lie.

I still can not understand this though. Maybe if it was a rare breed? But it was not, was it.