Karabash, Akbash and Kangal Dogs - Anyone have experience of these breeds? Questions

Does anyone have experience of the different types of Turkish breeds ,?

Are they all pure ?or intermingled amongst themselves ..
And where does the Anatolian come in to it ?

And i have put them in the Pastoral Dogs section is that right ??

As I understand it there are different breeds which as classed as pure breeds in Turkey. When the first dogs were imported here people didn't understand that they were different types and so crossbred them and they became known as the Anatolian Shepherd dog. The Karabash and Kangal (I think) are the same breed, and are fawn with black masks, but other breeds come in various colours and some are different in build and size. That's how it was explained to me anyway. Enthusiasts are now sticking to one type (in the main) and won't allow their dogs to be bred to different types, as they are essentially crossbreeds.

I prefer the Kangal, and find them much more consistent in type. When I think of Anatolians I think of Kangals.

The Karabash and the Kangal are one and the same. The Akbash is a different breed.

'Karabash' means 'black head' (Kara/black, Bash/head), 'Akbash' means 'white head' (Ak/white, Bash/head).

This is how they are classified in Turkey:

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/kopek.htm#coban

http://www.allaboutturkey.com/kopek2.htm#akbas

In the UK they all come under 'Anatolian Shepherd Dog' officially.

For the breed in the UK this site may help you:

http://www.didimdogshelter.com/pageID_7402129.html


Taken from the above:

"The name Karabash is popularly used for these dogs in Turkey because of the characteristic black mask (kara = black, bas = head).

The true type is also correctly known however as the Kangal Dog, after the aristocratic family of landowners from the Sivas region who, hundreds of years ago, took great pride in preserving this dog as a pure breed distinct from other shepherd dogs of inferior type.

Historical evidence shows, in fact, that a breed of lion-like guard dog has been in use in this and other parts of the Middle East since many centuries BC.

Karabash in Britain

The first pair of Karabash was brought to England and registered with the Kennel Club by Dr Charmian Steele in 1965. Shortly afterwards the Kennel Club agreed to the breed name Anatolian (Karabash) Dog, with the specific name in brackets to allow for other Anatolian breeds to be introduced later and classified separately.

Sadly, however, when dogs of different types were imported in the years that followed they were all registered as Karabash. Under pressure from the importer of the non-Karabash type Anatolians, the registered name at the Kennel Club was changed in 1983 to Anatolian Shepherd Dog.

It has thus been left to the original breed society, the Anatolian (Karabash) Dog Club to maintain the purity of its bloodlines and preserve the Karabash as a breed in Britain, just as the same dog has been preserved under the name Kangal in Turkey."

There used to be two breed clubs in the UK 'The Anatolian Shepherd Dog Club', they used to breed/accept any coat colour and length so their dogs were very mixed. They no longer exist as a club.

Then there is the 'Anatolian (Karabash) Dog Club' they breed the 'Karabash' dog which has the black head and short coat. They are currently the only breed club (with breed rescue) in operation.

Hope this helps a bit.

Sue

You can see why its a tad a confusing ..lol

Looking at the pics that Rip posted from crufts and this dog jumped out at me...

It's very confusing. Some of the dogs that used to be shown under the Anatolian Club looked nothing like the original Karabash dogs that Charmian Steele brought in. They were just general dogs brought over from Turkey, many were long coat and had all different colours, plus their temperament can be very different, they often don't have the same 'guard' dog attitude. I believe in Turkey these general mastiff type dogs are known as 'Kars' dogs.

The dog in the picture looks too heavy in the head to me and looks more mastiff type than the Karabash, though it is hard to judge from the photo. The dog in the background looks more like an Akbash, but then under our Kennel Club rules they would all be shown in the same ring as the Kennel Club in their wisdom says that all dogs from Turkey are 'Anatolian Shepherd Dogs'.

That is why the original name was 'Anatolian (Karabash) Dog' it was supposed to allow for when other types were brought in and they could then be called 'Anatolian (Akbash) Dog' etc. But the Kennel Club decided to drop the individual names and just class them all as one breed.

It's a bit like saying that all dogs from Great Britain are Border Collies.

Mind you they did a similar thing with Belgian Shepherd's - for a few years they said that all the varieties were one breed and had to be shown in the ring together. Now they have split them again! No wonder people get confused!

Sue

I have a story, now, i don't know the breed, so I can't say how correct this tale is, it was told to a whole room at a seminar by Ray Coppinger .
The tale goes that in the US there was an Anatolian breed club, but no Anatolians, the breed club hired him to go and select breeding stock from Anatolia. When he got there, after some research and many conversations with local shepherds who owned the dogs, the one thing that they would all agree on to the question " Is that an Anatolian ? " is " Are these the Anatolian mountains ? " meaning, if the dog came from the area, they regarded it as an Anatolian, regardless of minor differences.

My Miniature Schnauzer's breeder bought a young Kangal last year, who's now being trained as a security dog to guard his kennels. I've only seen photos of him, but he looks like the Kangal in Huns post.

As far as I know Kangal differs other Anatolians by the skull type which seems like a Polar Bear to me. Malakli (Anatolian Mastiff), Boz (Coban Kopegi) should have significantly different skull type as you can see in the photo.
Pure Breed Kangal should not show aggressiveness against mankind with good will and must have an easily perceptible intelligence.
They don't get too big. Male shoulder height is ~80cm. Malakli and Boz can be 1m at the shoulder.
I will not be surprised if DNA studies show that Pyrenees, Kangals and Alabai are close relatives

Thanks for those posts Hun. It is always great to learn new stuff about dogs!
I see what you mean about the polar bear head, the skull planes look parallel in that picture, where the Mastiff types have a pronounced roundness to the skull. The Malakli croup and tail carriage seems to differ from the other varieties too. The overall structure is more like our Bullmastiff. It is a very impressive look, I'm surprised that they are not better known in the West.

The skull difference that I know is exactly as you described. Malakli may the be the ancestor of many mastiffs, as Malakli type dogs were engraved on remainings of civilisations who lived in today's modern Turkey thousands year ago (e.g. Asurs). As far as I know, some scientists believe Malakli were breeded as a gurad dog and a war dog, which explains why they are not so good at "shepherd" type of tasks that requires intelligence and self-deciding. Kangals behave like a wolf pack, but at the side of mankind. They can somehow figure out every trick that a wolf pack can use against their flock.

Because Kangal may not be the most good looking dog for some individuals, they mixed Malakli, Boz(Coban) and Kangals, and this sometimes end up a Giant-X dog looks Kangalish, but have Mastiff spirit, brain as well as size.
I am not a specialist on the dogs for sure, I had no other dog but Kangal, so I don't find myself t have certain conclusions on Kangals, but breeders who breed different dogs at the same time, always claim Kangal are as smart as a man and very different than others. You cannot own a Kangal, but can a be good friend of them. As I say they are wolfs, and I haven't seen any wolf at a circus doing tricks for a piece of food
As you point out , I agree Turkish Dog Breeds are not very well known in the west. I have some certain doubts if Turks are well known in the west either

As a former breeder of anatolian shepherd varieties, I can confirm everything what Hun above has explained. The Kangal is the most stubborn and primitive working dog, closest to the wolf of all the anatolian varieties. The Kangal does not listen to commands. Sometimes a sit command works one or two times, but the third time you're asking to sit, he will look at you with a question mark on his face, because he does not understand the meaning of this unneccessarly repeating handlings on command.

Therefore, the Kangal is also totally unsuitable for fetching or being trained to become a police dog. The more mastiff type Malakli and the hybrid type Boz çoban are better listeners and also does not need a big fenced garden, something what is essential when you have a kangal. But it sounds maybe controversial; i could never trust them with childeren or cattle, because I have more than once experienced that a young Malakli and a Boz killed small lambs of ours. On the other hand i can and will always 100% trust a Kangal with small childeren or cattle. Never, in all those years i had an incident. The kangal has a very strong intuition and a stable personality. Absolutely fearless without aggressiveness, that makes the Kangal unique.

What a lovely picture. Thank you for your post, and for reminding us about this earlier thread.

I only have experience with Kangal. Which are great dogs, excellent guard and flock guardian. They are pure bred dogs. Many Anatolian are more of a western creation today, but there are separate strains / types / breeds within Turkey.

I've had a brindle kars/kangal mix, and he was the meanest sob going. Had to eventually get rid of him. Also have now a kangal, very good dog and no problem with humans or other dogs. I suppose he could be a guard dog, but I choose not to put him in that position- although he's attentive when he thinks he should be. But that brindle kars/kangal mix- he was even mean to me. Aggressive as hell.

Hello Steve - please note that this is an old thread, the last response being over three years ago.

I’m Fond of the Kangals ,
It’s always strange when you see a dog from your country that you know , and it begins to look different once it goes to another country .
I live in Australia so I’m speaking of our national breeds here .

When they alter it to conform to their ideas , or they begin to look generic to one certain type .

I heard they were not allowed to be exported and one of the guardian breeds there not sure the true Turkish name , was a national ‘treasure ‘ .

I got one from a shelter- the brindle. He looked like a kangal, but brindle. Although he had big flews n drooled a lot for an anatolian.

My current kangal I got from a turkish guy who lives about 40 minutes away. He looks exactly, and is the exact size you'd expect him to look like. They are not supposed to bring them over, but if they declare them as an anatolian, as in any mix of kangal/akbash/malaklisi/kars, then they can. so they sneak them in from time to time. Although there are lots of mixes being sold a kangals out there.

Can anyone on this thread tell me if my pup resembles the Anatolian Shepherd, Kangal or an Akbash? The person I got jim from has said he is pure Anatolian Shepherd but I'm just not sure. I'll probably end having a DNA test done but wanted to ask for everyone's opinions here first as well.
Thanks!

Informative and impressive