Dog breeds Discussions

Hi all,
I was thinking about where all the dog breeds come from and I looked at how some of the breeds have changed shape over the years and not always for the better. I've seen a lot of 'New' crosses being named like a cockapoo and wondered if, they carry on breeding the cockapoo with a cockapoo in time will this be accepted as a breed in its own right and there won't be any need to use cocker spaniel with a Poodle.

Also, when people say, go to an assured breeder, does this mean someone who is registered with say, the kennel club only?

When people start out as a breeder, how would they be accepted if, they don't have years of experience, as, you have to start with a first litter. How did these breeders become reputable breeders in the first place??

Up for a discussion as, it interests me how it all began?

And for those who may think I may be looking to be a breeder, I'm not, I only have pet homes with my dogs... A funny saying realy "pet homes only' as, I would think all the breeding bitches should still be from a pet home

There are Assured Breeders who do breed Cockerpoos and Labradoodles. Just like the pedigree breeders, what allows them to qualify as being Assured is that they are inspected and licensed by KC inspectors. In addition to having high standards in the housing and care of their stock, they have to show that they have reliable record keeping skills. Though many of the breeders do carry out the recommended health tests for their breed(s), this is not currently a compulsory requirement - a major failing in my opinion.
Any puppy bred from mixed breed, or non KC registered stock, can not have its breeding recorded on the official pedigree register, though there is a Companion and an Activity register which does not discriminate. Organisations such as the Guide Dogs and Hearing Dogs use the Activity register to maintain their breeding records, as the dogs are usually interbred.
My major gripe about the deliberate breeding of crossbreds is the widely held idea that they are healthier than a responsibly bred pedigree dog. A crossbred puppy from untested stock is just as likely to inherit a health problem from either of it's parents if that genetic material is present.
My second point relates to record keeping. If you were to try and create a breed by breeding crossbreed to crossbreed, in the absence of a formal pedigree, how could you tell how closely bred one, (for example), Cockerpoo was to another? Because the majority of pet dogs tend to be locally sourced, and the owners that decide to breed tend to use local stud dogs, it is likely that anything but a first cross would stand a good chance of being related.
Thirdly, what would be your breed standard? Who decides what the ideal type is, and why? What size, what coat texture, what colours and what conformation?

I think that is enough to be going on with, interesting topic though.

I met someone who had what she called a Labradoodle and it looked nothing like any of the (many) Labradoodles around here. It turned out that it wasn't a first cross Lab X Poodle but that both parents were Labradoodles. The result was nothing like either breed, and I imagine the same thing would happen if two Cockapoos were mated.

Funnily enough I met someone this morning with two Cockapoos (not related.) They looked similar, but their personalities were completely different. One was very Poodle like, and the other seemed to have taken after the Cocker side. It had to be on the lead most of the time as it would just put its head down and follow a scent and go completely deaf (I've had a Cocker and can remember what he was like if he got a sniff of Pheasant. No barrier could stop him!)

One of my favourite types of dog is a cross - a Lurcher. But I certainly don't include them in the designer dog category!

It just fascinates me at how breeding has all come about, who decides what is acceptable etc. I read a story about the guy who first crossed A Labrador with a Poodle to be used as a guide dog for people with allergies. Apparently he regretted doing so. I think because people started crossing all sorts of breeds together. I wonder why he didn't just use a Poodle as, they are intelligent dogs and trainable.
I also, have seen pictures of how dogs looked until..breeders bred into them somehow and produced a different shape. Like the bull dog, they were not as heavy set as they are now and the Rhodesian Ridge back never had a ridge, it was a disfigurement and pee breed that into the dog

http://thescienceexplorer.com/nature/how-popular-dog-breeds-have-changed-after-100-years-breeding

So by the above link, it would seem that some breeds are not the best in health even if, they do come from assured breeders etc.

I have a shih tzu and to be honest I wouldn't get another dog with a flat face because dogs do suffer with breathing problems. He snores and can start snorting and you can see him breathing heavily in and out until it passes. It can happen when he drinks water or I'm guessing gets some dust or something up his nose. A part from that he is healthy and never been ill.

I used to breed Griffons in another life and they are brachycephalic [flat faced] but none of them ever snored, snorted or had breathing problems. My mentor, who was a top breeder and judge at championship level, also never had a problem with any of her Griffs - but maybe the good breeding had something to do with it?

I don't really know about Griffons Juli. I know other ships tzu owners there dogs snort ,( it's a bit like having an asthma attack or panic attack) and snore and others I've met with French bull dogs & pugs and there breathing has been a problem especially in the summer.. Interesting to know some or all Griffons don't have the problem. Perhaps there is a lot to say then about buying a dog from 'good ' stock to breed from.

I've also, seen labradoodle dogs Janet that look so different from other ones, so, crossing them are not always producing 'same' look like the breeds we know. Here there seems a lot of cockapoos and the ones I've seen all have been lovely looking and look the same.

But over the years some dogs have changed and not for the better and now those who breed them some will be known as, assured, top notch breeders, which seems a bit crazy saying, only buy from them. I'm not just thinking of flat faced dogs but dogs like in the link I put on. So with this in mind, it would be best if, people didn't continue to breed them knowing the deformity has been breed into them like, Rhodesian ridge backs, never had a ridge, if it's true that is. Then you have the German Shepherd who's back end, legs, hips seemed to have sunk and they have problems but years a go they didn't look like that and their legs were straight. It's just seems a shame how this has happened. If it is true then I would think breeders wouldn't want to continue breeding them if, it was to keep good stock as, how can they be?

I agree it's a myth to say, crossbreeds are healthier. I can't answer the other points as, I have no idea how or who or when it all started, who indeed is the person that decides it all. Not all breeds are breed healthily as, so, down the line some breeds have changed in their appearance like the link I've put on. Not sure how true it is but it does make you think if, it's true that, people have done this, breed from a dog with a deformity to produce more and now they are assured breeders...

There are serious breeders who are members of the ABS, and there are many more who breed an occasional litter to continue their own bloodlines, and produce something to compete with. Both types should be equally serious about the quality of what they produce, and are usually Breed Club members, which involves signing up to a code of ethics which is far more detailed than anything that the KC demands. What would either of these types of breeder gain by breeding carelessly, or producing deformed stock?

There are other types of breeder, whose motivation is financial. Puppy farmers, some with a handful of stud dogs and bitch numbers well into the hundreds, and Backyard breeders, (BYB's), who pick up a dog and a couple of bitches, and breed them, with little knowledge of their bloodlines, to produce a supplementary household income.

I did look at the link you provided, and agree that type does change over time. Where I don't agree, is that in the majority of cases, I find the the modern specimen superior. There are exceptions, and work is in progress, (amongst the serious breeders), to correct points that have become too exaggerated. For the majority, type, coat, and confirmation - and conformation is what determines a sound dog - is far superior to the foundation stock. Just look at the GSD in your example, if you were going to buy one, which would you pick? The same as for a purely pet puppy, the most attractive.

To see a typical breed club code of ethics go, www.thebeagleclub.org and click Code of Ethics on the menu bar. I hope this helps.

The most attractive GSD would be the healthier one which by the photos would be the black and white one as, the dogs hind legs are straight which is less likely to have problems. I just think, how on earth did they change and why. If, it's just to "look" then that's not in the dogs best interest. There wouldn't be a work in progress if, they hadn't bred in the "deformity " it must have started like that and continued to today and now for the GSD's it's the normal.. But should it be?

I didn't realise the boxers had a longer snout which I think looks better too.

Oh well, I guess it all boils down to human choice and as long as people carry on wanting that look, they will continue to breed that way. My own preference now after owning a dog with a flat face, I wouldn't buy another.

I don't like it either when people breed for just the money
I was shocked on how much dogs cost these days, it's gone crazy.


I'll have a look at the breed club code thanks.

How can you know that that GSD was healthy? Its stifles are so straight that it could well have had patella problems when given a job of work to do.
I'll leave it there. Horses for courses.

I think the photos were just showing a difference in how they have changed. As with all dogs they all have some health problems. I was referring more to how the shape has changed and why would breeders do this as, it's not a positive change but has created another health issue that probably could have been avoided.

The one I didn't understand was the rhodesian ridge back never had a ridge... So why were they called that? Or gas the name been changed.

What do you think of this Gsd

I was discussing how dogs looked years a go to today. My personal choice is not to go for flat faced dogs again. I think dogs that have changed shape has not always been in the best intreasted of the dogs. Gsd's being one of them. So all Gsd's now will look similar as, that's how they are bred now.

so what do I think of the photo .. I think like all Gsd's their shape has changed.

Do I think it's a good thing what has happened to some dog breeds over the years No I don't if, it has caused another health issue to them.

Did I question people who are breeding the best stock, yes I have because it seems to me they continue to breed dogs that have resulted in adding to a health problem when they didn't have that way back in time.

I too have a dog that is flat faced and since reading up on the changes in dogs. I wouldn't but another with a flat face.

Asking what I think of the dog isn't really discussing the points I raised.

what do I think of photos of your dog or others dogs doesn't matter really as, that's your personal choice to buy whatever breed you like.

Sorry if I have offended you with my discussion.

You didn’t offend me I was just trying to point out that stacking the Gsd can completely alter its appearance.
Same dog in different stack.


Yes some have extreme angulations but it has no bearing on the health or the hip status of the dog.

Hip and elbow dysplasia and other disorders are far more serious and detrimental to the health of the dog than cow hocks and over angulation.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I had always thought that hip and elbow dysplasia were hereditary and/or genetic. - I know that in Griffons hip dysplasia, slipping patella and cleft palates were definitely passed though certain lines and when I was active in the breed one particular line was definitely involved.

Hip deformatives are definitely hereditary/genetic in humans.

It is a genetic (polygenic) trait that is affected by environmental factors.
Dogs can carry some of the genetic blueprint for HD/ED but not show the disease themselves. So, they could have normal hips but pass on the risk to their offspring who could develop abnormal hips.
Interesting Article
http://www.instituteofcaninebiology...ant-things-to-know-about-canine-hip-dysplasia

Thanks for clarifying GDS appearence and I'm glad I didn't offended you. I still can see a difference as, they still slope more than in times gone by and just wondered why this would happen and in some breeds the change in appearance hasn't been beneficial to the dog, my dog included in this, love him to bits but I wouldn't get another of his breed purely on the struggles they have with breathing. I don't think it's fair to breed dogs with this 'look' x

@GsdSlave - Even though I had had a lot of experience with major hip birth deformities in humans, although not with dogs, I never had a problem with my Griffons, but I had made sure that there were no known problems in the lines. However, a telephone call from someone who had bought a puppy from a then well-known breeder brought it home with a shock.

I cannot remember how old their dog was when they brought him to see me, but he had had two major surgeries and as the breeder denied having used a carrier - and no pet insurance in those days, they were trying to find help among other breeders to stop this happening again. He was a happy little dog but obviously not 100% in his walking - and very wary of me, perhaps he thought I was going to do uncomfortable things to him.

Yes you can create a breed in that way. You can still continue to breed poodle x cocker to make cross breeds. It's not an either or.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.... you build your reputation over time yes, but you can be a responsible breeder from the start.

How would you know which GSD is healthier or that the black and white photo dog is healthier?

Straight hind legs don't = healthy. There are health test - clinical screening and DNA test to find out a dogs health status.

Straight rear is not less likely to have problems. Weak hocks and patellas are prone to injury. Less able to cover ground as quickly, turn as well and less powerful and than a dog with good angulation.

I don't agree with breeding for money, but it cost a lot to breed dogs so if a breeder wishes to sell puppies then it is understandable.