Bombproof GSDs? Discussions

Yes, I am sure in many cases, confident handling can help an under-confident dog.

Interesting and complex. Drives always interest, but baffle, me at the same time! :?

Do ALL dogs (whatever breed, size etc) have each of these drives but in different measure, or was Prof Seiferle talking about GSDs in particular?

I would say that Molly is being a typical GSD by being aloof. All the GSDs I have had have never been interested in eliciting attention from strangers.

Interesting that Doobs is a different temperament to Roxy. Are they from the same parents too, or just the same breeder?

A friend of mine has two longhaired GSDs from the same breeder, out of the same parents (just different litters) and have been brought up in the same way by their owner (who is also a dog trainer). One is completely bombproof, can be used as a stooge dog etc etc, and the other one is nowhere near as stable and confident.

I wonder how the genetics worked differently in that particular scenario - unless it was environmental.

I had to cut most of your post as it was so long Chaz n However, I don't think anyone would berate you for your post. That is your experience with GSDs and unfortunately it is an all too common view from speaking with other people and even other dog owners. I have found more people scared of their dogs being attacked by a GSD, than fearing for themselves, as it would seem that GSD dog on dog attacks are reasonably common :-(

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us and I am just sorry that most of them have either been sad or scary ones.

As you rightly say, not all GSDs are the same and the puppy farmers and BYBs have much to answer for

Sorry to hear about Elvis - there is always that *one* dog who is just extra special, and he sounded wonderful.

Going back to the part about your mum's iffy bitch who was put to a bombproof stud dog, and the pups turned out to also be bombproof - would that indicate that early nurture was as important in that case as the genetics?

Does anyone know for sure whether pups mainly take after one parent or the other, is it a mix, or are some more like one than the other?

Are you referring to the American showline GSDs? I have seen (admittedly only video) of some of the working type GSD in the US and they look awesome - although I would imagine a large percentage have either been brought from Germany, Czech Rep etc or bred from those dogs.

Definitley from the same breeder, they are 1-2 years different in age. In all honesty I don't know if they are related. Looks wise they dont particualry resemble eachother.
The breeder said she's always wished she kept Roxy.

I have become a firm believer in genetics, although I agree socialisation and training shapes the potential. Sadly I don't think the majority of breeders (even many which are well regarded) put enough value on breeding for temperament.

Having said this I know even amongst litter mates not all dogs will be the same, even those which are brought up in exactly the same mannor.

It seems that the mix in temperaments in GSDs has come about from it being such a popular breed and too many breeders not taking sound temperament seriously.

I think the reason that the puppies developed so well is that they had a lack of contact with their mother from 3 weeks of age, the rest of the dogs we had at that time had correct temperaments & my Petra who raised the puppies was probably the only truly dominant dog I have ever owned. She ruled the rest of the dogs with a paw of pure steel, a look, a raised"eyebrow"was enough to prevent any"disputes"amongst the rest of the dogs. She never had to show any form of physical action at all.

She lived with the puppies from 3 weeks of age until they were ready to leave just as she had with her own puppies & with me handling them from birth & exposing them to masses amount of external experiences, like strangers(to the puppies)visiting & interacting with them on a daily basis & taking them out with me to all sorts of places via car rides etc I think definitely did mean they were well balanced & confidence.

It was a really hard slog, but thoroughly worth it to ensure the puppies had the best starts in life. Not very PC nowadays of course I would be lectured on exposing them to all types on infection, disease etc, but what they gained was of more importance to me & I did prove my point. My mother never again bred from an "iffy"dog/bitch & embraced my love of working German lines.

Back in the 1970s it was quite normal for GSDs with the worst of temperaments to be bred from(as with the case with some current breeders still)just because they looked good standing still propped up by their handlers on cheese wire chokers, there is such a dog featured in a recent dog paper-it doesn't look good to me with one of it's stifles almost touching the floor BTW.

I do wish that GSDs(& all breeds/non breeds TBH)had to pass a breed survey which included temperament assessment before being bred from, but I very much doubt that will ever happen

TBH, GSD's are one of the breeds of dogs that I haven't had issues with regarding my dogs. Although Honey hates white ones :? Which isn't very comforting when you have a loose white one come right up to you. And having to stop your dog going for that one, while holding two on a lead feeding off each other, and no other owner in sight.

I think it is a shame though that certain breeders have such a ready market. And I'm sure that most of it is because they are such a good looking dog, that everyone knows, people like to have them as pets. Even if their not the right people. Or the right dogs/breeding.

My first GSD was bomb-proof. She was a rescue, then raised in the country miles from civilisation so her laid-back attitude wasn`t down to early socialisation but her temperament - and also the fact she was my first dog so I assumed she`d be fine with trains, school gates, strange people.
My second GSD was bomb proof because she thought she was better than everyone else.
My third was alo pretty much trustworthy because we travelled a lot.
And Daisy is fine as long as people don`t glare at her. ;-)
But these attitudes were after many years of work.
I think when you first get your dog you (I mean I) always expect them to be as good as the dog we`ve sweated blood to train for the previous decade.

Most of my GSDs, if we ignore my current rescue, who has la few problems with people, but considering he was 11 when I had him & had been chained up & starved is really quite good, have been bombproof in terms of temperement out with other people & dogs, but I'm not sure some of it wasn't luck. I had one dog I bred who was great as a puppy but at 14 months old he was badly mauled by a Newfoundland who broke away from a stall at a Charity event we were at & lept on him & I never got his temperement right again & he was/is the only dog I've owned who was worse off lead than on with other dogs. Never had this problem before or since but I've not had a teenage dog savagely attacked & really badly hurt either so I can't say what would have happened if I had,

Tala is totally bombproof. People, dogs, fireworks ... You name it she is not fazed by anything.

My friend has a rescue gsd found abandoned and starving on the streets and he has a wonderful temperament. But he does get a bit anxious about little things sometimes. Footballs at the moment but that may well be because he never encountered these things when he was a puppy. It does rather suggest to me that it is down to genetics given the terrible time he had in his life.

Zandi is 100% bombproof he has excellent nerve and temperment, 100% WGSL breeding he can go anywhere and meet anyone, he visits acute psychiatric wards, he has worked with people who have severe learning dissabilities with additional behavoural difficulties, he is a reg blood donor at 2 vets, he has acted as a stooge dog for ones with problems.

Because people are told to socializr, socialize and socialize some more !

You yourself said you take your pups everywhere, good idea and nowt wrong with that but people misread the signs or rather think if they flood a pup/dog with an experience it hates it will get used to it and sadly it just makes it worse.

Its not just GSD's it is any large dog...people can over socialize..rush to beat the 12 week window because they are told after that it is too late. Then they get embarrassed and eventually never take the dog out..two extremes. People with little dogs get away with it because many people find little dogs amusing.

But yeah a large dollop of genetics and a measured amount of exposure to 'stuff';-)

You cannot OVER socialise a dog but you can POORLY socialise a dog.

And I do not think I have ever recommended that people take their dogs where their dogs demonstrate they are uncomfortable or unhappy?

Not sure where the 12 week window came in either?

My Elvis was attacked as I wrote & it never affected his character, he even had two Alsatians attack him at the same time at his 2nd visit to a all breed show(aged 9 months)he was from a very strong maternal line that was 100% German working lines & he was very much his mother's son(in looks as well as character)thank goodness.

I used to handler an all black bitch who had several nasty attacks made on her by various dogs(which supports my theory that some dogs cannot read all black dogs)once she was attacked by an Airedale that jumped off a grooming table onto her back, she never retaliated much to the surprise of the Airedales professional handler-he never apologized nor did he check that she was OK, he did shout to someone that my bitch had provoked his dog !!

Star was a gorgeous character & fell head over heels for my Beardies, who I showed at the same time, she used to make a beeline for any Beardie she saw, good job she was so well known amongst the Beardie folk as a GSD zooming up to a Beardie could have been frightening.

and I never said you did recommend that, which is why I was careful to say that there was 'nowt wrong with that'..meaning taking dogs everywhere.

But yes it is how you do it. People often interpret taking the dog everywhere as forcing it to places and situations it does not like and is not ready for. As for the 12 weeks that is invariably what vets, dog training classes say and some books...I didn't mean to imply you had said it and indeed didn't

There are an awful lot of reactive GSDs around my way, probably more than bombproof ones. I'm sure it comes down to bad breeding, so many people do not bother to research their breeders properly. When out walking, I see the majority of GSDs on lead, owners walking like me and actively avoiding and GSDs gobbiness off on the end of the lead :?

I have mixed feelings about whether I'd ever have another GSD (Cain is a cross but many aspects of his behaviour are GSD). There are many GSD traits I find appealing and I love their handler dependency and loyalty (although the whole underfoot thing can get tiring!), but I've seen soooooo many reactive GSDs and I don't want to go through that again. My trainer has a GSD who he got from a good breeder and was socialised and trained from an early age, yet he was still a reactive nightmare. And I don't enjoy handling the lungey barking behaviour they do when they react. The gobbiness doesn't bother some people, but it does bother me.

I always feel that when you get a good GSD, you have got one of the best, most bombproof dogs going. Problem is, when you get a less genetically sound one... Well you really have your hands full

just a point to ponder here ...given that GSD ( and my own breed) were originally bred to work with one person and to be alert to anything outside of 'their' territory/family/livestock etc ..then surely the natural temperament for breeds like this is to be wary and reactive.....is it right to change their temperament so that they are 'bombproof' ?- could a 'bombproof GSD have done it's original work ?

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here as I have deliberately over the years bred away from my breeds 'wary' temperament - aiming for a much more laid back version than is typical ....but istit right to change a breeds intrinsic nature this way ?