The Rough Collie Ring General Chat

Just saw this as an advert on Preloved for Rough Collies,
I was googling them just out of interest after seeing Luke's piccies of Hunter (this is not meant as a slight to Luke, just Rough's in general)

I stand in the ring so sad to see,
there are not many dogs as big as me,
I am the standard noble and strong,
but in this ring I don't belong,
with dogs being half the size as me,
and so many tails that defy gravity,
fluffy coats it is shame to see these dogs melt in the rain,
small thin muzzles and slit like eyes,
isn't it time we penalized,
dogs like these are offered for stud,
they can't do our breed really much good,
I think it would be a very nice thing,
to see good size return to our ring,
and not forgetting the long low tails,
you hardly see in many males,
the standard should come first and be in favour,
and not the dogs with only ring behaviour,
I hope our judges make a stand and keep our breed looking big and grand,
the question I pose now to you,
are dogs like I the last of the few.

And it got me thinking, I remember our Rough's to be much bigger than many you see nowadays as do the Shelties but it could also ring true for many breeds

Yes, I find it a sad sight to see.

I used to love Rough Collies and always envisaged owning one as an adult. However, the Roughs from my childhood are no more. Large dogs with less coat, friendly and outgoing. These days it is often hard to distinguish between the Rough Collie and the Shetland Sheepdog The Roughs I have met have all been needy, clingy and nervy dogs.

it is sad how quickly dogs are changing isnt it? and how what is in the show ring seems to filter down to the breed as a whole so from my childhood (not that long ago honestly ) to now the dogs are almost unrecognisable

Great post. I was just saying the same thing to my Mum earlier today. When we had a Rough Collie, he was huge, with a gorgeous face. Yet all the RCs I meet these days are about half the blinking size - and what's with the pointy, tiny, narrow little faces???

On Saturday a 9 month RC was at the park; lovely colour, but again, a fraction of the size of my old dog; and again, such a narrow face.

RCs used to be really striking, majestic looking dogs. Now, to me at least, they all look more like very big Shelties!

you haven't met mine then no sign of nervousness and defo not clingy and correct sizes. first sign of food and they are anybody's.

Whisper's nervousness is more because of her mistreatment - she's not 'needy' or 'clingy' though. In fact she's laid some way from us behind the sofa fast asleep right now!

I have no idea if she is the kind of dog people expect / don't expect to see but she isn't crazily 'fluffy' either lol. (Though when I'm grooming her she does seem to have a lot of fur lol!) She isn't as tall as I feel she 'should' be though but I'm a newbie' and a novice.

We've been watching the Lassie films and agree that the 'old style' Roughs are splendid. If I do have another Rough I'd be doing a *lot* of research first. Some breeders, from what I've read, are aiming for 'old style' dogs which is certainly what we'd prefer.

Whisper has a lovely character. Everyone in our family loves her to bits - children included - and she's steady as a rock. Very vocal too!

They have changed an awful lot, but there are breeders still breeding what most people know as a rough collie in both look and character/temperament. Lots are importing american dogs in, whilst I think it's great to open up the gene pool and bring in some CEA free dogs I strongly disagree with what many seem to say about ALL American RC being great and being old fashioned, they are very different to the "old fashioned" English dogs and it seems have always been of a different type to ours. Just the divison is wider between the two countries types since most english roughs look like oversized sheltie's.
On pastoral day at crufts OH and I spent hours at the rough ring, saw some fantastic dogs some real collies (lots English lines btw!) with fantastic fonrimation, and temperament. Saw the fair share of oversized sheltie looking dogs who seemed very edgy too. I wasn't all that overcome with the Rough Collie that got best of breed, he wasn't my type of dog and IMO there were better dogs there on the day.
As you know from our pm's Leanne, they are still out there in the UK. It's just knowing where to look But unlike a lot of others I don't think the be all and end all is American dogs, as feel personally they are still a separate type to what our old english dogs were.
Lots of my family have had them, infact since the thirties onwards to about 2007 there was in the family. They were real collies, big strong dogs with a great temperament. Not as wedge headed as the US dogs as really our English line dogs never were that heavy, but still very strong and different to the majority of what's around today. They were fantastic dogs, well all the ones my grand and great grandparents had in my lifetime!
I have had lots of people within the breed and with knowledge of the breed saying I should consider getting Hunter out into the ring when he's mature. But I know he wouldn't do all that well under most breeders, he is solidly English lines but very cleverly bred and has begun to illustrate his breeder's aim of getting back to a more classic dog. He isn't quite entirely "old fashioned", more moderate, but has the sensible coat not masses of it, the true roman nose, very nice big head, good expression without the staring into sunlight look, and so far looking as if eh will shape up to be a correct sized dog..not small. Whilst in my opinion he is shaping up to be a real collie, it seems these do not prosper so well in the ring under certain judges. Alas the doomed ones dose and all that!

If I did decide to get another Rough I'd be doing a lot of research and asking around to find a breeder.

if anyone who prefers the older style rough collie and is looking for a pup i am more than happy to put them on to a breeder , you only have to ask
FWIW ...........Luke the dog who got BOB at Crufts has won that accolade twice in 3 years no mean feat.

Theer are judges of both types (yuk i hate that description)so if your dog is of show quality there's no reason not to show him if you wanted to, the breed is always looking for new exhibitors.
.

Not discrediting the dog that won in anyway, I'm sure for many he's super. He's just not my taste is all, and there were others which I liked the look of (in both looks and movement) there on the day. He's very much what I would expect most judges to go for though.

equally there are judges who prefer the other type;-)

Yup I have you in mind 'just in case'. ;-)

'Twould be a way off yet though.

nothing to stop you looking

Don't tempt me!

I'm looking into Shelties too at the minute as a smaller dog may be more practical for the long-term. Do love Rough's though and always will thanks to Whizzy. xx

A photo of the Crufts BOB can be fund here
http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2012&GroupID=PAS&ScheduleID=117

It does not look it would be able to work sheep all day. How can a breed change so much in under 50 years when the breed standard remains virtually unchanged:?

This page shows a Crufts group winning Collie from the 1960s. To my eyes it looks glamourus but not overdone in coat
http://www.collietree.info/1961-70_2.html


Unfortunately it is not the only breed where coat has become exaggerated - at work, people were commenting how silly the OES looked and that it looked a blow-dried Beardie. I can see what they mean
http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Group.asp?ShowYear=2012&GroupID=PAS

That is quite a difference. I know people say it is 'just coat' but the face has changed so much too
and anyways - why on earth are we breeding dogs for such excessive coat anyways??

who said breeders were? you can't always know the amount of coat an offspring will get from parents with fitted coats, sometimes it just happens . Uusually the ones at shows whose dogs haven't much coat are the ones that complain about dogs with bigger coats

If they are not breeding for coat how come over a very short space of time many breeds are getting more and more coat?
Yes I am sure sometimes a little produces a dog with more coat - but if that pup wasnt getting slected for the showring, picked by the judge and then go on to be bred then there wouldnt be such a quick change
When I was a kid there were no excessivly fluffy rough collies - now there are many, and I dont understand why these dogs are winning as the coats would get in the way of their origonal jobs

coat changes have not appeared over a very short space of time in RC's.


so what are you saying you need to show a dog with less coat irrespective of its show potential?
i agree they didn't have the coat thickness when i was a kid either however they did have the length and correct texture!

No what I am saying is WHY are dogs with coats that would get in the way of their origonal purpose winning at shows
Excessive coat should be a fault

your two paragraphs contradict each other - that their coats havent changed in a short space of time - but they are thicker from when you were a kid
imo that is a coat change in a short space of time - confused as to what you mean