ESS vs. English Cocker Discussions

I need a sporting dog for grooming competitions, and I've narrowed my choices down to these two breeds. I've met quite a few springers, and while a lot of them seemed a bit silly and hyper, I believe that with good training and exercise they would be great dogs. I've met a few engies as well, actually I went with a friend to a breeder's home yesterday to groom one. One of the girls had puppies, so I got to play with both adults and 6 wo engies. I have to say, I just do not like them as well as springers. They were whiny, yappy, and demanding, and I just generally wasn't wild about them. However, I realize that those qualities could very well be as a result of the way they were raised. So on to my questions: what are the pros and cons of these two breeds? What are they like when compared to each other, other then the obvious size and color differences? I'm not really set on one or the other, although I AM leaning towards a springer. I'm mostly just undecided though!!

Being over in the states, are you aware we have working and show strains of both breeds (sorry, not sure if you have both over there!) as it might have some bearing on the answers people give you, and indeed, the dogs you saw.

oh yes, thanks for reminding me, I should have mentioned that I will be looking for show bred. I need all that hair!!!

I am not the right person to comment but my working type springers are nutty!

My preference would be working type Cocker over a working Springer any day.

But if it was show types, I'd definitely have a show type Springer over a show type Cocker. No offense to owners of nice show type Cockers, but the vast majority I have ever met have had some type of temperament issue -- usually snappiness, nervousness or both.

I don't know many show type Springers apart from the ones that used to go to gundog training. They were very different from their working counterparts but were nice tempered dogs...if a little ditzy!

I've had the same experience with cockers, and I'm a dog groomer so I've done a lot of them!! I didn't really want to bring that up too much though, as I've seen it start some major flame wars on other forums. Honestly, I cannot determine wether their issues are because of the way they were raised (so many people just spoil their dogs, and I've observed that every breed\dog reacts differently. Cockers tend to be nervous and snappy, shih tzus can be downright vicious, poodles are yappy and snappy, etc.) or if it's a breed thing. I just don't know, that's why I'm asking!!! And yes, some springers are ditzy, but again, I'm not sure if it's a breed thing OR if it's a lack of training and exercise. Some dogs cannot focus and think when they've got a lot of pent up energy!! Sammie is like that; she's also not the brightest crayon in the box either. We joke that if you listen real close, you might be able to hear rocks rattling in her head. BUT, she's a great dog, so who cares if it takes her 6 months to learn how to sit?!? (true story....and we were working with her every day! She couldn't seem to remember from one lesson to the next.)

I'd go with a Springer - more to work with

True, but actually in a timed competition that's not necessarily a good thing. However, I'd rather have a slightly larger dog with a temperament I like then a little one that I hate. Anybody else have any more info that might help me decide?!

Either breed is good for grooming competitions so the next question should be which would suit my lifestyle?

I have an English Cocker, show type. And I'm also a dog groomer. My dog is perfect being groomed, because I have raised him to like brushing, bathing, drying, clipping etc. However during my dog grooming experience, I have to admit to cockers being either too hyper on the table or snappy at brushes. I believe it is way they have been brought up, and partly due to the coat maintainence. Because the coat is so heavy and full (on most cockers), owners underestimate the grooming needs of this breed, and therefore don't brush the dog. It matts up, making brushing/grooming painful, so he snaps at the groomer, owners continue not to maintain the coat, and it just keeps on happening. If the coat is maintained well, the dog is introduced to grooming from an early age, then cockers should be no more difficult to groom than any other breed.

So obviously they CAN be good for grooming. (and I like your theory on why they aren't a lot of times!!) But what about in just normal every day life when your dog isn't being groomed? What is he like then? Like I said, the cockers I met the other day were awfully annoying. They weren't "bad" really, they just got on my nerves with their barking, whining, jumping, and begging for food and attention. I do suspect that their mom let them walk all over her though, which would obviously give a skewed view of them. As far as what would work with my lifestyle: I need the dog to be good with children and other dogs, as i have a lot of young siblings and 4 other dogs. I would prefer that the dog need no more than 2 hrs of exercise a day, which would include a 2 mile walk, fetching, maybe some agility, and tug games. Size does not matter too much to me, although when it comes to competing smaller can be an asset. I also need a dog to be ok with being alone for part of the day, as it will be staying in a kennel type area I'm building behind my house while i am at work. (with other dogs, of course, so I guess not really alone!) I also really prefer a relatively trainable dog, stubbornness really gets to me in a dog!! I think that's really about all...so if anyone could tell me which of these two breeds will fit my needs better, I would appreciate it!! Also, anyone know of some good books or websites about these breeds so I can do research of my own? A lot websites and books I've found are very general, which isn't helpful! TIA!!

Well, my cocker has been strong-willed to train. He can not be let off lead because sometimes he goes deaf. Cockers do what they want, when they want and only if something is in it for them. If they spot a deer, they are going after it, unless you (the owner) can come up with a better alternative. Although I do love this cheekiness about the cocker.

I have heard that springers are easier to cope with, and do not have this strong-willed-ness to them. They do things for their owner, not for themselves. So you may be better speaking to a few springers owners and getting their opinion and going from there.

Well if you get a well bred cocker they will have a wonderful temperament.They are known as the merry cocker.Full of fun, big personalities in a smaller dog with lots of energy and loyalty.I am biased however as we have a wonderful blue roan cocker who shares our lives.The other advantage is the many colours they come in......enough to start a collection!

couldn't agree more here, but cockers don't suit everyone.

I would choose a Springer for grooming because they tend to be less active. I have to say though that although I find show type Cockers to be quite vocal and highly strung at times, I haven't met hardly any snappy ones, and I do rather a lot of them. The breeding is very important I find - well bred cockers from show breeders tend to be easier to handle that most pet bred ones IME.

Thanks for all the advice, it looks like a springer would be my best choice. However, I'm still going to do more research just to make sure. thanks again, you've been very helpful!!

Hi i have a Springer of working breed. ive never had cockers so i cant comment on them but i found my springer very clever indeed . he learnt it all from a young age. only problem i have with my springer is . lead walking (ive heard it takes alot of time for springers to like leads, or so ive been told there not great especially workers are much better trained off lead.)
And Recall i think cockers are better with altho i know a handful of very well behaved retrievers and beaters.
Personally i think springers are a very good package.
Also i know with cockers the "Rage" syndrome is more common in show dogs. (Snappyness,aggressiveness, possesiveness) and in my eyes (one sided you can tell) springers are more good looking . im yet to met a purebred cocker that really pops your eyes out

I tend to disagree with the well behavedness. i take mine shooting and where he is very good at what he does 95% of time. when we are beating hedges, if a rabbit tends to shoot out, ive not a chance in hell of him coming back till hes either lost or caught it! but trainability wise 100% perfect mine know lots of party tricks we do just for entertainment!

Ok, thanks for chiming in!! I really appreciate hearing the different views on these two breeds....as I've read them, it's becoming apparent that I prefer springers. BTW, "rage syndrome" is not just snappiness, aggressiveness, and possessiveness. I've done a small amount of reading on it, and it's almost like a seizure...the dog has no control over himself, he just starts attacking everyone and everything in his path, and when he comes out of his rage, he is disoriented and may be unresponsive for a while. Once he gets over it though, he is completely normal, and doesn't seem to remember what happened, even if it was just minites before. From what I can understand, there is a serious "disconnect" in their brain. I've read that it's fairly rare now though, thank goodness!!

Thanks winstonecaesar, appreciate the input! Seeing as I don't hunt, that issue shouldn't be a problem; it's good to know that springers are fairly trainable though.

Rage is often mis-diagnosed and is increasingly being bred out.I certainly would not (and did not) let it put me off getting a cocker.It is about researching your dogs lines and getting a well bred pup.With a cocker you will get a greater choice of colours ,a great little dog and a wonderful coat to work on.There is a reason why it is one of the most popular family breeds ......check out my photo threads to see my cocker.Also google cockers online and you will find a site that will give you some tempting dogs!

Although it is mosly found in cockers , my riding instructors springer had Big head syndrome when she was a puppy and now has "rage" . i remember house sitting for and she has 2 other dogs a collie n a GSD . and 1 min she was walking round the next shes trying to savage the dogs in the neck . i had to beat her off with a tea- towel , not that it worked but after about 30 secs she was fine , very scary on 1st hand account! you could even see a change in her eyes. its very strange!