Mini English Bull Terriers and their Stubbornness Behaviour

ETA: ACK! I have NO idea why I posted this in 'bulldogs' and not 'terriers'! I'm so sorry! I blame it on seeing 'bull terrier' and immediately connecting it with bulldog. Oi. If it can be moved, I would greatly appreciate it!


So I've been researching breeds but time and time again I find myself going back to EBTs and MEBTs. They're just so perfect!

My only problem is that I keep hearing that they can be well behaved (when told) but have this strong tendency towards stubbornness. What does that mean exactly? How is stubbornness portrayed in a dog, even if well-behaved?

Is training an mini-EBT different from other dogs because of it? Will he always have a tendency to not listen when he doesn't feel like it? (Bad recall, not so great at obedience training/tricks, etc.) Or does it mean that he would need a loooot more reinforcements on a constant basis for the rest of his life?

I keep seeing some obedience training on youtube with EBT, but I can't tell if they are posting to prove they are the exception to the rule or in triumph that the dog actually did what they wanted him to do finally!

Interesting question(s).

To begin with I do not believe dogs of any breed are "stubborn", I think there are a lot of strong willed dogs out there, a dogs with a lot of initiative and those that are bred to have a high degree of both to do the job they do.

One has to differentiate between a number of factors.

You do not see a lot of BTs in training classes, fewer still of MBTs.

Why is this?

1 Nuimbers that are bred, circa 3k BT and <300 MBT are born yearly as against 10k of SBTs.

2 Expectations of owners many owners get them and are not interested in training them particularly, I have asked several owners over the years when I have seen them if they go to classes or not, the vast majority do not. Some because they prefer not to, some because of the classes and trainers.

3 Many clubs will not accept certain breeds.

4 Many trainers do not have the skills, knowledge, ability or experience to cope with the more independent breeds and they also have preconceptions.

5 Truly competitive people tend to purchase tools for the job and not spend the increased time required to train a dog to do a job which a genetically engineered dog could do quicker/better.

Dog training is not difficult, there are only two rules:

1 Make it easy for dogs to understand
2 provide sufficient reward

Many trainers/owners do neither.

I am not particularly attracted to them the Bull Terrier and MBT tend to be breeds that you ARE attracted to or definitely not.

They are very trainable, very quick to learn and as long as you are consistent with the training they are very good at re call ect...they are extremely nosey, like to help with whatever your getting into, mine had wood stain on her head last week helping me do the fence lol...they are chewers, and they will choke and eat things they're not supposed to, from plastic toys to knickers and sox pegs, wood if it gives it will be chewed, mine had an expensive op to remove sox, we didn't even know she had got them, they're sneak theives...they're not for the faint hearted !

I agree with all the above

I'm am owned by 2 standard bull terriers, my 1st one was born deaf and is the most stubborn & strong willed dog in the world.
She hates going for a walk (we put alot of this down to her being deaf and feeling safe in her home surroundings).
As soon as we leave the house all four feet dig in the ground for at least 50 metres, until we get to the top of the hill, she then realizes we aren't giving in and starts to walk.
She is now nearly 4 yrs old, so we know she isn't going to change now
This stubborness with walking is very common in bull terriers, some grow out of it and some don't.

On the other hand my other bull terrier is as nutty as they come, and is ready for anything, anytime of the day.
I have just started doing competitive obedience with her, and i am (hopefully) proving to a few people that this breed can be trained, it just takes a bit longer.
She is far from perfected in the ring, but hopefully by putting in alot of work this season she will have more of a working head on for next season ;-)

Both of my girls have been to training classes right from a pup, and we have only ever seen 2 other bullies at classes, and they never kept it up

Oh wow, thank you so much for the information guys!

I bit the bullet and have since bought 'When Pigs Fly', the training book by a woman who got her bullies to win obedience awards(!).

SmokeyBear, that is incredibly informative! You're right about the numbers being a factor, and that owners definitely need to learn to work with the dog's motivations. I didn't realize that EBTs and MBTs had the same rep as SBTs. Its kind of hard to imagine them being so ferocious with such a clown face (but then again I came across a news clip of an EBT /battling a raging bull/ and...wow, lets just say I have new found respect for them!)

Inkliveeva - I have to admit that I find that incredibly charming! I had a cat like that once; when I moved and couldn't take him with me I missed having that cold wet nose pressing into a new things to get into it just as eagerly as I was. Although the choking part sounds like something I have to keep an eye out for Forget baby proofing rooms, I need to bully proof rooms!

Betsybullie - That sounds amazing! I am so glad to hear that you have bullies in obedience training. Although hearing about the two others that dropped out is very unfortunate I guess that proves SmokeyBear's post. It really is about the trainers and their patience; their patience has to be greater than the EBT's independent streak.

I was wondering however, what methods of training do you use for obedience? I would love to have some insight on what to expect from this breed!

You can use exactly the same methods for training BTs etc as other breeds, they key is to find out what the DOG finds rewarding.

Bull breeds for example often prefer a game of tug rather than carrying a ball around; thus training with people who are used to handling collies or other pastoral breeds may be difficult if they insist on using balls.

As in anything, dogs tell you what they find rewarding and what they find punishing, if wer remember these rules, we do a lot better!

I have clicker trained my young bullie, and always used to use treats.
But she started to go off treats, so we changed to a kong on a rope.
She loves being trained, its just a big game to her

This is Me & Beryl at Basingstoke ob show a few weeks ago, this was only our 2nd proper show.

I always remember the "Dog Borstal" episode of the young lady with the English Bull terrier. She was in tears at the end of it and Mic Martin said she was a really good dog trainer and would have succeeded -with a different dog. It was very entertaining, but you couldn't help feeling sorry for her!

Betsybullie, your picture just made me squee in happiness I love the tricolor on bullies, it makes them look just that much better! Such a gorgeous dog, and her eyes are all on you!

Smokeybear - very good points there (yet again!). Though I remember an episode of 'Its Me or the Dog' featuring an english bulldog. Victoria told the owner of the dog to stop playing tugging games as it seems to excite the dog and teach it to be a bit more 'rambunctious' and aggressive in its playfulness (as a lot of the visitors were scared of the idea of having a massive bulldog growling and tugging at a rope.) Wouldn't it be the same with the EBT or most bull types? Or was that just a specific case?

Kerryowner - Oh no! Poor woman! Now I want to see the episode! Just to, y'know, get an idea of what I might be getting myself into...!

Well you have to do what suits YOU. For those of us who compete we WANT that drive and excitement as of course then we get a dog to work its little socks off in order to get what IT wants, the toy!

I think its ok to play tug of war with any breed, but you need to be able to say when the game is over.

Yep there are rules to the game, and if the rules are obeyed by both handler and dog, no problem.

I think people who work and/or compete with their dogs need/want, and hopefully can handle, something very different to what would suit the average pet owner, hence working and show/pet strains in many breeds.

Even with the same individual, certain training methods will increase energy or drive, great if you can channel it once you have created it.

Other methods are more likely to create calmer, less intense behaviour, which in most cases is more suited for most domestic pet dogs.

I would agree with that.

There was work done looking at if allowing about 12 Golden Retrievers to win tug made them more "dominant" than having them lose at tug.

However if you read the paper the criteria was winning 2/3 (i.e. winning 66%) of the time, and of losing 2/3 of the time (i.e winning 33%) so the difference between winning and losing in the two groups was only 1/3 or 33%.

I wondered why they didn't look at a 90%:10% win:lose split as there didn't seem that much different between the two groups :?

No explanation was given about the division of the win:lose proportions.

Their conclusion was that winning tug didn't increase "dominance" although those results could be interpreted differently, even within those figures. However clearly even when winning was "allowed" there were still human decided rules or the win/lose split couldn't have been controlled, so, even when winning, the dogs were playing according to human rules.

I have certainly come across some EBTs who refused to walk, but they were able to be trained out of it.

For balance I would have to say I have also come across a few aggressive EBTs, as there will be some aggressive individuals in any breed, but an aggressive EBT has a lot of power behind it.

I would however ignore Semyonova who says they all have brain abnomalites, along with a list of other fighting breeds, and German and Belgian Shepherds!

A well-known EBT judge and breeder used to say that "If you are not on top of your EBT by 5 months of age you never will be".

I'm going to have to disagree with you there:?

Some bullies hate walking and just don't see the point.
I have one myself and know alot of others like it too.

So if you think they can be trained out of it, i'd like to see somebody try

My point was that those who I personally saw, who behaved like that, were able to be trained out of it.

That is a factual statement.

I would not presume to know everything about every dog including those I had never met, irrespective of breed, so I would not claim that it would/could be the result in all cases.

Not least the outcome could depend on why each dog was refusing to walk.

So I am not sure we do disagree after all?

I have had two in for training now. Clicker trained them both. & both quick to cotton on.
Buller is more than happy to please if he can.....just some times does not decide to engage brain.
Charlie was super whirlwind lively.

Both were stubbornish,so much as although they quickly got the idea it took along while to prefect. Lots of repitition & lots of patience.

I found them both charming & enchanting dogs to work with. Buller comes dog walking once a week & i love him dearly