Border Collies - a general discussion Discussions

There is no excuse for that at all Mish. Thankfully I don't know any farmers or shepherds like that, and if a dog won't work then it is found a good pet home, rather than using it as a breeding machine to make extra money.

Just recently a friend was looking to find a good home for a lovely collie of her dad's that wouldn't work. It was good timing, as a friend of a friend had recently lost their pet collie and was looking for another. Glen (the dog) got on very well with his new owner and both are now inseperable. Far from trying to make money from Glen, my friend and her dad travelled down from Knoydart (in the NW Scottish Highlands) to the Borders to make sure Glen and the prospective owner were compatible, and asked no money for him, not even travel expenses.

Does your OH miss a collie around the place now? Or is he as smitten as you with the flatties?

I think it is probably a mix of both actually.

All our working dogs seem to be born with off switches. They aren't particularly taught to chill out, but after work, they sleep or sit happily on their kennels and only bark and jump about if someone comes around.

I agree though that it is wise to get any dog used to relaxing, especially when they live in the house. All mine - collies and sheps, don't pester me in the house and know when to just relax. I think that has just come about by lifestyle and repetition of my behaviour though, rather than something I actually taught them.

I would like a rescue collie at some point in the future too, probably when the children are older. I like the fact that the BC Rescue in North Yorkshire try all the dogs they get in on sheep and rehome the workier dogs to working homes (as well as any puppies they get in) and then they have collies who are uninterested in work specifically for pet owners wanting a collie.

What sort of breeder did Mace come from DD? Why do you think that collie's are misunderstood?

It's so difficult and I think the world of Border Collies is full of politics and conflicting views. I feel the main problem is a lack of acceptance from all areas of breeding. There are terrible working collies, show collies and sport collies, and there is anicdotal evidence to suggest that all areas of breeding are the worst (eg. neighbour with a crazy farm collie, friend with show collies who have lost all collie-ness, trainer with sporting collie who is obsessive) There are also examples of brilliant dogs in each area. People are far too focused on the breeding of the dog, in my opinion. They are all border collies, they all can have the same problem. Eg. not just sporting collies lack off-switchs, not just working collies can show working traits such as nipping etc, and not just show collies lack herding drive.

If you got a collie from a rescue, you would just treat it's problems as 'border collie' traits. It wouldn't matter if the dog was sport, work or show bred, it would just be a border collie. If it lacked working drive you wouldn't say 'Oh those bloody show breeders, breeding drive out of the dog. Well it's not a real collie I won't have it then.' It's just part of the dog!

I think the politics of the owners is the major problem. Everyone blames everyone else, saying 'oh it's because it's show' or 'typical working collie', rather than actually trying to fix the problem!

It makes it incredibly intimidating to ask for help, or even to buy a puppy, when everyone tells you you're doing the wrong thing. On this forum alone I'm sure there are people who would advise a working collie, a sporting collie and a show collie as the best choice, and different people who'd say all three are the worst choice!

Say for example myself. I got a show border collie as I was told this would be the best choice, due to the health tests. Along the way, I've met people who have told me that show collies are practically the spawn of the devil, working dogs are the only dogs to have. Then there's those who warn you well away from working collies, NOT pet dogs they say, but of course they're the only ones that should be bred

I'm waffling away, as it's still something I'm unsure of myself. But I think we need to look at problems as breed wide. A lack of an off switch can be found in working collies, sporting collies, pet collies and show collies. So isn't it just a collie problem?

I agree with MishFlynn, i know LOADS of working bred BCs, many of them Champions in various fields, and they ALL have off switches.

Often it is not the DOG that is the issue but the OWNER.........

I must look like a right chump with 4....people ask me which are the best....are they good for this and that.....and I have to say my only reply is .....don't have one I would never ever recommend one.............they must think Im completely nuts, but I've had collies in my life for over 48 years now,all rescues except two, I've met good, bad, gentle, aggressive, indifferent, destructive and just plain evil ones........and without knowing the breed they would not be my first choice of dog

I agree............ some people get them, with no thought that this will be a ''wanna do, I can do, wanna be going, tell me whats next, and Im three steps ahead of you if you can not control me'' type of breed, and they are defo not for the faint hearted;-)

If you think there are conflicting views in the UK (which of course there are) you ought to read some of the views from the USA, (if you haven't already) They are soooo passionate over there

To be fair (re: the bold part), I would probably be one of those people who would advise against a working bred collie PUP for people who want a pet dog. However, I would advise, in that instance, that the person looking for "just" a pet dog to contact BC Rescue who assess dogs for work and for pet, rather than going down the route of a puppy. jmo.

I agree Steph. Moss was my first "pet" collie and as "just" a pet (though with lots of socialising, training, long walks etc) he was still a bit of a handful (to put it mildly ) . He was just desperate to work. Thankfully at 6 months I took him to sheep and from then on did plenty of very short sessions with him to keep him sane. I then met hubby and the rest is history - Moss got to be a dual purpose boy ... work and a pet, and tbh, as much as I love collies, I don't think I would ever had another one if I hadn't married a shepherd!

Some very interesting posts...

Looking back when I was looking for a rescue BC I rang around all local rescue centres. Happily, I found Jess who was 7 months old and needed rehoming as the owner was working full time.

This was 15 years ago and Im sure much has changed. I didnt get a home check, I wasnt questioned re who was at home/how long would she be left and the most important question -- Have you ever owned a dog before?....No I hadnt had experience of owner any dog...

OMG I hear you all cry!!! and looking back Id agree!

Jess taught our family So much about collie ways...she was so lovable...took her to obedience--she sat under the chair for the whole time, took her to agility--she sat down and wouldnt move from the exit door--unless there was a tunnel involved!!

I loved for all her border collie-ness and after a house without a collie for 4 months we rescued Merlin last June. He is totally the opposite of Jess but having learnt from her (she taught us so much) he has very quickly learnt the routine and is a happy healthy collie.

A friend saw Jess and loved her. They then saw BCs working at a county show and decided they Had to have a collie. I told them no-way!! Luckily, they opted for a cocker spaniel instead. Sadly, they didnt listen to my advice not to get her and the dog was rehomed to a farm some 5 months later (they had bought a working cocker spaniel!!)

Ive probably gone off topic but I think its so important to rehome wisely, Im sure they do nowadays. As said I think people get them as they are "intelligent" and working strains are "cheap" compared to the "show" ones...

Would I be without a collie....I dont think so, although Merlin is hard work!!

I think collies are popular because their beautiful looks are so diverse and they can be obtained easily and cheaply.

I'm not a collie person, they would never be my first choice of breed but I do have a passion for them, mainly because they are the breed i'm most experienced with and a breed which is done a major disservice by alot of owners.

I look through various rescue pages almost every night and see collie after collie in need of a home and they are the ones who pull at my heartstrings the most simply because I know the kind of home they need and I could probably guess the kind of life they've already had.

I have easy collies, they have a good off switch (in fact, Jed's off switch is so good it masks his on switch!) and they dont have any of the 'typical' collie behaviours i.e they dont chase cars or bikes, they dont nip, they dont herd, they dont eye etc. TBH, I dont think I could cope with a high drive, highly strung collie.

Jess sounds like one in a million and I am so pleased she gave you your love of collies They are such a special breed.

Love that description of Jed's off switch Your two sound like the sort of collies that do well in active pet homes - ie they aren't too obsessive, manic or worky, but do need a good level of stimulation and exercise.

Fit for function ? - given that precious few Border Collies will never go near a flock of sheep should we not be breeding them for their REAL function - ie to be family pets ? - I know this may be a tad controversial but it does seem a nonsense to produce so many dogs that are frankly unsuited to average suburban family life - it's unfair on the owners and more importantly it's massively unfair of the dogs ! - if we can breed to change physical characteristics then why not change temperaments too ?

My breed is also an active one but Im proud to say that I've deliberately bred out some of the more 'wired' and guarding characteristics and my line is renowned for its easy going temperaments -yes they can do agility but they can also do Pets as Therapy work too - with society becoming more and more anti dog it seems the responsible way to go .

What most people want in their dog is a good looking friendly family pet that they can have fun with but that will not be bouncing off the walls if they miss a walk or two .

If we're not prepared to change their temperaments then we should NOT sell them as pets but ensure that they only go to true working homes.

Not sure what Moobli's thoughts would be but I read that with interest.

I have to say I have seen on numberous occasions when on holiday in parts of England Wales and Scotland adverts outside farms for....Border Collie Pups for sale, farm bred, excellent pets, excellent workers....parents can be seen
sadly we drive past with my head shaking from side to side:-( :-(

I have the two types here....workers and non workers.
one came from rescue in Ireland and the other from a farm in wales....although this is another story and mission as we realised it was a PF (however thats another story):-(

for me those two are the least trouble, even though Skye (PF) is IMO a full working bred,.

Tess (we know nothing of her history) came from a rescue as a pet home only.....Tess I would say is Farm Bred ( again IMO), and I would stake my years wage if someone had of had her that were not experienced she would of been either back in rescue or PTS:-( Tess is a live wire, needs stimulation both physically and mentally but is a strong strong willed dog, she has been difficult to train,
both in house and outside.
Tess seems to me a pup born outside, she came here with no clue of indoor living, which I have had to work hard with. I have had to use a completely different approach in her training to the others dogs, working with one word commands or signals, I have had to work hard to break her of eyeing, circling and stalking the others, and doubley hard with the other furries for her to work alongside and not against me.

Its sad that so may end up in rescue with these problems, and those on here that know me personally know that it has taken the best part of 12 months for Tess to bloom into a dog that will now listen, knows when to stop, recalls reliably, will not chase things that she shouldn't and can show that she now has understanding of when and when not to do things............I think Tess would of been a statistic in the wrong hands sadly:-( she definately should of been in a rescue that accessed her.........luckily for her she came here;-)

Sometimes we both do. We have told the rescues we are now involved in we are happy to foster collies though and something tells me it is only a matter of time before we get a visitor of the collie flavour!!!

Yes I know the rescue you are talking about. Lovely set up.

Don't donwplay what you have done...your dogs are calm because you have helped them to be that way.

I think that's doing a disservice to Leanne to be honest and I don't agree it's the 'type' of collie. My collies have always been like that as have OH's and they have all been working bred. It's about how you treat and train them (and how much you put into them) in a pet home....I do think if they settle and are happy with what you do it can mainly be about nurture.
I suspect that a dog that was SOOOOOOOO high wired for herding that it couldn't ever settle,wouldn't actually be a good worker either, extremes in anything are never good.

Possession is the one that causes the problems---that and idiots saying to take things away so they 'learn'.

They own anything on the floor, the sofa, the bed and the people around them.

I have known two dogs that have I believe literally gone out of their heads due to lack of stimulation and exercise. One was Celts BC brother who went eventually to a friend but was unpredictably aggressive---would be running round and suddenly break off and leap at faces etc. The other was a working cocker who belonged to the person I got Etta from. Raq was rarely walked and never off lead and he became very aggressive.

I am tryoing hard to make sure Etta's sister does get time running but it doesn't happen often and she spends far too much time in a crate in the car---the owner is nearly 80!

I could kill the farmers who sold two working springer bitches to an obviously old couple!

rune

It is such a difficult one - the real function for the collie imo should still be as the working sheepdog. I do kind of understanding what you are saying though and part of me thinks (as I think I said previously in this thread or another one) that it might be better for the working collie to go its own way (breeding working dogs and ONLY selling as working dogs ... if only :-( ) and that show/pet/obedience collies continue to go their own route too - with some of the herding instinct being bred out, and anyone considering a collie as a pet going to those breeders or getting a failed worker from rescue.

You say precious few border collies will go anywhere near sheep - and I think that is a real shame and a real problem. Clearly far too many collies are being bred if the vast majority won't even go near sheep (although I would be interested to know the statistics on that one). Especially in Scotland and the North of England, sheepdogs are still used regularly by shepherds and farmers and most of the collies I know are working dogs - ie proper working sheepdogs on farms. There is still a high demand for well bred working pups and tried and tested working dogs - just look at any sheepdog auction. You would be amazed by some of the high prices these dogs are sold for The hobby of sheepdog trialling is also becoming more popular with the general public, whereas historically only farmers and shepherds took part, and the triallers are also wanting working bred dogs.

My ideal would be that the working collie be preserved in some way, and only be bred and sold to good (proven) working homes (ie where it will be working stock). Anyone wanting a pet collie or one to do a hobby with, should go to a breeder (not a farmer) who breeds for pet/agility/show etc or go to breed rescue who assess dogs temperaments for home living.

Sadly, I can't see this ever happening.

That is one of my bugbears :-( I hate to see pups for sale like that ... and anyone with the cash can just walk up and buy one - no questions asked.