Ethical cross breeding??????????????? Controversial

I have a question!

If this was a repeat mating (which is what I gathered from your other thread) and the mating was done to produce working dogs, why had they not kept a puppy from the first litter? Surely the only way to tell if the litter were good workers would be to keep one and work it?

If a puppy wasn't kept the first time round then I'd be concerned that they were breeding purely to make money, which is the worst reason to be breeding imo.

why do i need your respect? lol
Are domestic breeders puppy farms then?
How many breed thier dogs at home and sell the puppies to people they know? Not that I agree with but most people don't class that as a puppy farm.
normally it's large scale or continuous litters from the same bitch. My rehomed one and I seeing the state of the place you knew it was a puppy farm, you can't tarnish missguided people with that brush. They may just want to see thier dog have puppies and be unaware of the complications of not doing the relevant tests. Out of naeivety, not because they are money hungry people with no morals.
IMO puppy farms/back yard breeders are in a catergory of thier own, you have legitimate breeders who do it all right but at the end of the day still just want to make money, or else why would they be selling dogs for thousands, then there is the middle ground, people who mean well arn't quite clued up enough.

If it's not for demand, or money why does anyone breed and sell thier dogs?
They wern't origionally bred for working i guess, but were found to be good. First mating must have been an accident.
at £80 i doubt it was for the money, he would've spent more than keeping them and I'm sure a farmer's income doesn't need to be topped up with the odd 80 quid.
I wasn't there to judge the mans charactor anyway, and this thread wans't to judge mine lol.

I don't think the op brought from a puppy farm, just a farm whose dogs had bred.

Adam

What were they keeping from this litter?

No Collie crosses around here just bl@@dy good collies that can handle the sheep & cattle

No adam, I am obviously an evil person lol.
I didn't think this forum was about forcing your ideas on other people that are just after informtion, afetr all there are all types of dogs and all types of dog owners out there.
I think i'll leave them to it

no idea, he's not a personal friend of mine so i didn't ask.

A good breeder will only breed to better the breed, ie improve on each generation, be it show or working breeders. Bettering the breed means producing healthy, happy puppies and homing them to good, long term homes.

The problem with breeding for money is the dogs best interests won't be at heart, as a result you are more likely to end up with a poorly puppy due to the parents not being health tested as health testing costs money, something a poor breeder won't want to shell out for. Without health tests your puppy could have any number of genetic conditions inherited from it's parents, without testing the parents for these conditions you won't know if the resulting puppies are healthy.

For example - if both parents are carriers for an eye condition, they will look to all intents and purposes like healthy dogs, however if bred together they will produce affected and therefore blind puppies. The same goes with HD, heart conditions etc. Both parents could have poor hips but could look healthy, breed them together and you dramatically increase the resulting puppies having bad hips and possibly being crippling pain all it's life.

Breeding for money means poor breeding practices which leads to a higher chance of pooorly puppies, which is bad news for the owner, but even worse news for the puppy.

A good breeder will pick parents that are free from inherited conditions with good temperaments and will go to great pains to grill prospective owners to ensure they're genuine. This results in happy, healthy puppies that are likely to be loved for a lifetime. Contrast that to a breeder who breeds for money. They don't care if the parents are healthy or have good temperaments and aren't fussed who the pups go to. This increases the chances of puppies being bred with bad health, dodgy temperaments and homed to owners who might not be interested in keeping the dog for life, which then results in more dogs ending up in rescues.

You might not be one of these people, but what if the three other puppies end up in homes like this. That's three more dogs in rescue when rescue centres are already full.....

Hmm....odd you have taken that. I wonder what would have happened if you had come on here for research first?

I would love to see where people have forced ideas on you?

However - I hope that when purchasing in the future you can now take to that what you have learned on the forum about health testing.

No No No A puppy farmer breeds from lots of bitches, does no testing, has the stud dog & the bitches. Breeds the dogs as one would breed cattle, sheep etc but with less forethought. They breed 100's of puppies & usually from more than one breed & do include designer dogs. They breed & only retain a puppy if they are going to breed from it & also they ditch the brood bitches & stud dogs, once they are not longer producing in sufficient numbers.Offer no support after the sale

A pet breeder does just that breed from their pets without bothering about breed type, pedigree etc & usually without any health testing(if they do test it is usually just eyes & hearts by their GP vet)Offer no support after the sale

BYB literally breed one or two bitches to death & again do not health test etc Offer no support after the sale

A"hobby"breeder will study the breed they want to own & breed from, buy a bitch from health tested parents of good type & do some form of activity with her(showing, agility etc etc)They look for a dog to breed her to that will improve the breed & of course do all available health tests & have a perfect temperament & character & they will ensure that their bitch too is of sound character & temperament. They will plan the litter so they have a puppy to continue their bloodlines & to do some sort of acivity with. They have homes lined up before the mating is done & have homes for most of the litter before they reach 6 weeks. They offer a lifetime of support for the puppy

Your puppy was bred for "pin"money & I very much doubt that the income will be declared for Income Tax purposes. Unless you saw the whole litter you don't know how many the bitch had & how much they were on the market for. If she had 8 puppies, the 1st 4 could have been sold for £100 & the price dropped to get rid of the remaining puppies. They would still have £720 from the litter-a nice bit of tax free income

True. But I think it becomes a visciouse cycle.
People such as myself will get the best they can with the money they have, even with good intentions not everyone knows all there is to know about buying a dog and what to look for in each breed, but you do your best with the knowledge you have.
I got the dog I did BECAUSE I couldn't get a dog from a rescue centre, they wont rehome to people with kids, even if it's a puppy, believe me I've tried before.
so you give up going to rescue centres, and you hear other peoples horror storys, and they tell everyoone else, so more people stear clear.
More people buy puppies, the poor dogs the shelters wont rehome stay in the shelter for longer, or even worse get put down.
And more people breed.

If legitimate breeders wern't doing for money why would sell bulldogs(for example) for £2000 each on average?
Health testing can't cost that much and if it's the same bitch and dog are they likely to test them for each litter?
it's nearlly all for money, but what can you do?

I don't know a lot about Bulldogs, but I know they need caesareans which costs a lot of money. Raising a litter well isn't cheap either.

Good breeders generally don't keep using the same dam and sire over and over again as it doesn't benefit the breed. To better the breed you want try and better each breeding, this wouldn't be achieved by using the same dogs all the time. You get what you pay for when buying a puppy, health testing the parents, paying a stud fee, raising a litter to the highest standards costs a lot of money when done correctly. Good breeders are often lucky to break even. Contrast that to a bad breeder who just uses any old bitch to any old dog, no health tests, minimum input when raising the litter and the money will soon start rolling in.

Bulldogs apart I have just been to tattoo a litter of Golden Retrievers, parents fully health tested & the bitch was super, gorgeous temperament & loving every minute of having her puppies around. To date the breeder has spent over £3,000 on the litter(they are 6 weeks old)& hasn't charged the earth, she will have the price of two puppies left when they leave less the costs of the keeping them for the next 2 weeks, the tattooing & transfer of the tattoo to the new owners(£18 a puppy) & various other odds & ends she hasn't factored in yet. This litter will be the bitches only litter & yes they have a "free"puppy for themselves. But as for "profit"the value of those two puppy sales will not keep the mother & daughter for the rest of their lives & of course if you factor in the time spent ensuring the puppies are raised correctly then she would be earn less than 50p an hour. The puppies are absolutely lovely & if I had been in the market for a Golden I would have definitely smuggled one out. The mother's character is outstanding, she was present during the tattooing & not in the least bit concerned that the puppies were being harmed.

These puppies are living in the house with the run of the kitchen, hallway, back sitting room & garden, not outside in a kennel or barn & are destined to make super pets

I have not read the whole thread as it is one that comes around often so I apologise if I reiterate sentiments which have been previously expressed.

This sort of thread is often generated, as this one is, by those who buy a cross breed without doing the research that many of us would do to justify their purchase.

I personally am not against x breeding per se. There are plenty of reputable organisations and breeders that x breed for specific purposes.

The GDBA have long crossed LR with GR for Guide Dogs, not to mention several other breeds.
The police often like BSD x GSD.
Gundog people (who do not compete) often like CS x ESS, or ESS x LR.
There are still others who deliberately cross breed because the mix regularly produces winners in their discipline.

For example, there is a well known individual in WT that consistently crosses BC/WSD with GSD as this has produced WT Ch for him and ticket winners for others.

The same applies to Coltriever and Melnola Affixes whose breeders produced multiple Champions.

A responsible breeder should ensure that the relevant health checks are done for all animals in their breeding programme to eliminate/reduce defects not only for the well being of the dog(s) but also the disappointment not to mention costs for the owners.

Even if you breed from actual X breeds themselves, it is still possible to have these done (contrary to popular belief) although the results may not provide any worthwhile information for breeding programmes per se (too little info).

The same arguments proferred above of course apply equally to breeders of pure bred dogs.


Breeding costs money, but good breeders see that as an investment, and there are a lot of underlying costs that are not strictly related to that litter alone, for example there are the costs of keeping older dogs, show entries, fuel costs etc.

It is not ethical to recoup your costs or try to UNLESS of course you are trying to make money without making any investment at all in what you are producing by conducting health tests of breeding stock and rearing puppies in a way that maximises their soundness etc.