Labrador colours, a guess anyone? Discussions

No Mace isnt any more of a Border Collie, or dog for that matter because he is bred to conform to breed standard..He has a clear fault which means he couldnt be shown ;-)
I like the working lined Collies.

But that is where th split is coming....the working people are going for one type...and the showing another....
BCs on farms have stayed pretty much the same, but the show type is a very different shape on the whole.

I cant say I know much about the overall breed, only ever had rescue collies.. all from working lines, so im intrested to see how much Mace is different to the others...I do like my dogs a little stockier than the working line Collies - I would choose it over the leggy, slender type.. I have seen but thats from my point of view out of the working area.

We have a number of different working collies here on the farm. I will try and get a shot of them all together and you will see the differences in "type" but all one breed, and all capable of working sheep on a hill farm - ie what they were bred for.

Well thats harldy a case in point is it, just look at the NI, Ute etc.. many of them have horrific hip scores! Doesnt prove a thing.

As I understand it there are three colours of Labs:

Yellow (under which comes all shades of white through to fox red)

Chocolate

Black

Labrador Retriever coat coulour genetics:
From a strictly genetic point of view (which, btw, is the only scientific one), there are two genes coding for pigment and one gene coding for the protein that deposits the pigment in the coat and mucosae. These genes can have 2 different alleles and all combinations of alleles are possible resulting in only 3 different coat colours: black, chocolate and yellow. Different hues among these basic colours are due to modifying genes and/or environmental influences.
The eumelanin (black/brown) pigment is coded by the gene "B" and the pheomelanin (red/yellow) pigment is coded by the gene "C". The gene responsible for depositing the pigment on the coat is called "E".
A black pigment is produced when the allele B is present once or twice, ie inherited from one or both parents. A brown pigment is produced when only the allele b is present. The gene "E" can allow the eumelanin to be expressed (allele E) or not expressed (allele e). The gene "C" is always expressed as pheomelanin, CC producing greater amounts (red), Cc producing intermediate amounts (dark yellow), cc producing small amounts (light yellow).
So, all black labs have at least one allele B and one E (whether they have C or c doesn't matter because eumelanin is darker than pheomelanin) because they have to produce the eumelanin and deposit it on the coat. All choc labs are bb (ie, they don't have the B allele) and have at least one E (they deposit the brown eumelanin on the coat). Yellow labs can have both B and b alleles but they do not deposit the eumelanin on the coat because they are ee. Depending on the C allele combinations (CC,Cc or cc) they can produce more or less pheomelanin and have the red to light yellow colour.
Also, the pigment is always deposited on the mucosae (eye rims, mouth and nose) either lots of eumelanin (black, BB or Bb) or less (brown, bb).

That said, there are other aspects to consider which are not scientific. Breeders have decided to limit the range of "desirable' traits for obvious purposes, either for fashion or work reasons. The coat/mucosae colours have nothing to do with health or performance (or beauty, IMHO).

I agree that breeders desire particular traits for their breeds and stick to that pattern, although the "desirable" is arbitrary in terms of colour (at least for Labs) and this should be openly explained to ordinary owners who often misundertand the subject, thinking that some colours are detrimental to health.

Here you have some mutations expressed in Lab coats:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks2.html
Interestingly, the dog under "Grey factor" actually looks like the "original" Lab.

Red Fox is a completely different colour than yellow however there are so many shades of yellow is can be hard to tell, from pale almost white looking (andrex puppy) to a brighter yellow. in all there are 4 registerable colours Yellow, Black, Chocolate and Red Fox, but yellow is such a large spectrum there could b as many variations as hairs on the dogs coat.

Im sorry but there are 4 registerable colours for Labradors however they are Yellow, Black and Chocolate and Liver. That is a completely different colour to Fox Red which is DEFINATELY dark yellow. http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/breeds/colours.aspx?id=2048 and from the Breed Standard:

"Colour

Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible. "

The KC only register:

Black
Yellow
Chocolate/Liver(these are the same colour)

Non of the world's KC's register Fox Red as a separate colour

but it is a seperate gene type so there for a seperate colour no?

is slate grey the same as balck???

Regardless of the ins outs of the genes that 'make' Fox Red, it still comes under the catagory of being a shade of yellow...therefore it is not a seperate colour.

fairynuff,

can someone explain where these myth's come from?

As others have pointed out - there are THREE colours of Labradors that can be registered with the UK and US Kennel Clubs

• Black
• Yellow (ranging from almost white / pale cream to fox red)
• Chocolate / Liver - which mean the same thing and pretty much these days a breeder preference - either are permissable.

A white flash on the chest of any of the three colours is acceptable under the breed standard (although not always obvious in yellows ;-) )