Border Collie Breeders General Chat

I'm sure Borderstorm will come along and answer for himself soon, but he can't be totally against it as he is the breeder of my Teagan and he sold her to me knowing I wanted her to do agility with.

JFK, I agree and that is what I am hearing lots
What makes a great working dog is great - IMO that is what a border collie should be
It makes them fantastic active dogs
But I am hearing that just breeding for agility or show, these dogs do not need quite as fantastic abilities - dont need such a work ethic to excel at agility
So over a few generations of not breeding for working ability the dogs begin to go from being great agility dogs to OK agility dogs

Personaly I dont like the idea of breeding dogs just for a sport, it changes the nature of the breed
and also not all dogs are gonna want to do that sport - I hate to think what happens to the dogs who dont have an interest in agility
I do the hobby cos me and my dogs like it - if another dog didnt like it then I would find what was needed to make that dogs life happy

There is a big difference in showing and working lines, I should know I have dogs from show, isds and sports lines!

Bertie is from show lines, I was niave when I got him and thought a Border Collie was a Border Collie not knowing there was a difference in lines. He's got a big show coat, no stamina, he always got clear rounds at agility, but never had the speed or drive to get the high places, his coat takes alot of maintenance so would be a problem in a working dog.


Teagan (bred by borderstorm) is from ISDS lines, she has lots of drive and easy to manage coat, she won me out of starters agility by winning the class by 3 seconds.


Skye bred to do agility, both her parents compete at grade 7 (top grade in the UK) and several generations on her mothers side are agility dogs. She has plenty of drive and was really easy to train, eager to please.

well good to know I still think that it's a shame, and I don't think I'd ever want a show bred border collie... we have a show bred Siberian Husky, love her to peices but i don't think she will ever have the stamina to run for more then a mile... maybe in a few years? but she's lazy for a husky... kinda disappointing but we love her any ways and my BC Jessie, I was told she was a mix but who really knows, she was just a pup that got born into less then great circumstances and I wanted a dog, I was 15 and didn't really care, I think she's the only dog out of that litter that is actually still alive... sad

I would love to get some ducks for my future border collie to herd around the yard, It would be fun and i would learn along the way agility is a definite possibility but only if the dog is interested and it would be just for fun...

what do you think about Border Collies herding pet ducks for fun to keep them active and doing what they were bred for?

Brenda - If YOU want to work your dog with ducks then thats fab, I am sure you will both love it
I hope thats what you mean - and not just getting ducks and hoping the dogs natural instincts will keep her occupied playing with the ducks - cos then you will have dead ducks

I have a show bred BC that is working sheep well...
we had an ISDS dog that would not work sheep and a couple of sport bred ones that did OK at sports but were never tried with herding.

....breeding counts for a lot - but don't forget your environmental influences as well.

In my opinion after donkeys years of studying the bloodlines of the BC in all disciplines is that the pure ISDS bred dog is capable of working in any discipline that requires the drive, athleticism and stamina you mention PROVIDING it is from well established lines based on recognised breeding dogs of the past. As much as some people believe that ALL ISDS bred dogs have a drive to work, not all do. There are poor lines in any breed and the true blood BC is no different. I only like to speak about my own lines these days as people take offence if you mention something you don't particularly like about theirs even if it's justified. I can truthfully say that to the best of my knowledge I have never yet bred a dog that didn't wish to work. And the reason for this is the ancestral background of my breeding dogs and how it was all assembled based on some renown breeding dogs of the past. You cannot get away from what lies behind your dogs so if you breed poorly it comes back to bite you.
I have in my kennel a 'show bred' dog that is 6 generations away from any working or trialling stock and you would think that his will to work has been diminished. Not so. And the reason for this is that he has descended from the great powerhouse and renown 1968 International Supreme Champion Bosworth Coon TWENTY SEVEN TIMES!! Blue is wonderful and came to me by pure chance. He has the heart of a lion and NEVER gives up and would work until he dropped. You don't get many like him to the pound!! In my humble opinion the majority of problems, both in health and ability loss is the continual outcrossing that takes place today more than any other time that I can remember. In days gone past when travel wasn't so easy people used local dogs that were good types and the result of that breeding was seen every day by the dogs produced. Line-breeding AND inbreeding was common because they got to realise who the healthy dogs were without a need for testing. It was only when people started going further afield to use dogs that 'alien' blood began to infiltrate into recognised pedigrees and things began to change. Now we are seeing pedigrees that include dogs from all the disciplines combined which includes foreign blood and with it all the health and mental problems appearing more and more. Never before in the history of the breed have we needed genetic testing so much to help sort it all out. Poor breeding practices have created it, the dogs remaining innocent victims.

I had pet ducks but they totally ignored my collie when he attempted herding them ... I wonder if some breeds of duck are more amenable to being herded

Thanks for your reply borderstorm, I don't have much knowledge of breed lines but find them fascinating. I wouldn't be insulted if you commented on my dogs breed line but would find it interesting. After all he's here, I love him to bits and he's going no where.I looked outside of agility lines as I felt more and more are breeding to find an agility champion from narrower and narrower stock and soon it's going to go belly up. When I first got my younger dog I did intend to do limited breeding with him but at a year he started to show a couple of traits I wasn't happy with( I'm sure these were my doing) so he had a quick appointment with the vet and two bricks! In fact I was told by several peole that regardless of his blood lines no one in agility would use him unless he was successful, this ironically has been proven correct as now he is doing quite well I have had a few complete strangers ask me if he is available at stud without even asking about his lines. Sensible.

The breed people are going to love you When the KC first recognised the BC back in the 80's and started awarding them Challenge Certificates, they looked pretty much the same as the working ISDS dog. A Standard was set and they went from there. What has happened since has created a split in the Border Collie world with the dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast predicting the downfall of the breed because it was certain to lose its ancestral ability to work coupled with a change in the 'look' of the dog. Sadly, both have happened to a huge degree, but only because it was allowed to. Those careful breeders who wanted to keep the traditional type are to be complimented because it has cost them dearly. The importation of the New Zealand/Australian dogs that went straight into our showing rings and competed against the English breeds (although they looked different) began to win everything because the importers were the people who were judging them! The breed it was a changing although the Standard remained the same.
These days the look is the important thing in the show ring with the working ability on the back burner in most cases. They look nothing like they are supposed to yet as I have already said, the Standard remains the same so who is to blame. It has to be the judges surely who have allowed this to happen and the KC for turning a blind eye to it.

I personally think that the show ring is not what's important, epically in working breeds, it's just a beauty contest, and tbh I love love love the looks of a working Border Collie way more then a show one... It's more they way they're supposed to look I think. Although I do fancy the rough coated ones over the smooth coated, but I don't like the way they over do it with the show dogs.

I have put these up before - they were what came up in a search of 'working border collie' and 'show border collie'
IMO the difference is sad
I know plenty rough coated working dogs, but they were not bred for looks (although they are stunning) But many of these show collies look more like aussies to me
and people are gluing pups ears and things for show wins - sheesh - why should that even be a consideration in a working breed??

gluing ears, really? that's horrible!!!

One of the reason's that I'm looking for a rough coated dog (besides that I like the looks them more) is that my boyfriend, whom I live with, has allergies to dogs with shorter coats. Shorter coats tend to let the dander fly around more (my thinking) and the longer/denser coats (when bathed and groomed properly) don't give that much of an issue... I know he was extremely happy that he could play with Jessie and not have his allergies bother him one bit

And yes they do seem to look like aussies... (the show dogs)

I love the looks of this dog, (can't say that I actually love the dog as I haven't met it)

Blimey, in the middle photo they look like toy Borders!!!

Actually you don't you own a BC cross & a BC cross is not the same as a BC

I know in the US that colour means a lot to so many people who want a BC that people do breed just for the colour-not a reason to breed a litter-the only reason is to improve & continue the breed & the preserve good bloodlines(& no my dogs are not from"show"lines)

Ok I was told that she was a cross, but I've also ran into many breeders and owners of the breed that mistake her for a full breed BC... So for all I know she could be, because the mom was one and there were multiple males that got in on the action so who really knows, I just know that I don't have papers for her, but as she act's just like a border collie, and looks just like one (maybe a bit on the lazy side sometimes, but that's only when I'm lazy). and I don't know how I can be more clear that I'm not looking at breeders that breed for color and looks!!! did you even check out my first post and look at the breeder's that I'm looking at?!?! do they honestly look like they're breeding for color?!?!?! Just because I'm allowing my self a preference on looks doesn't mean I'm a bad or irresponsible person, and it also doesn't mean that i'm going to go to an irresponsible breeder and get a dog just because of looks!!! Health and good breeding, and what's inside the dog is also sooo important to me!!!

and I'm sorry Jodee that you feel that way about me, and think so badly. I started this thread because I wanted people's opinions on the breeders that I was looking at, and possibly some stimulating conversation that also has the potential to be informative!!! and I do not recall any one having a go at you're dogs weather they're show or not or what ever...

I dont see any prob with you getting a Collie, & you seem to be doing lots of research. Lets face it you already own a husky (demanding breed) & a collie (lets have a piccy up so we can say X or not! not that it matters -just for fun)

A GOOD thing about collies is that they do come in lots of colours, that are allowed in the breed standard, i dont see this as the same as breeding breeds in colours that arent reconisgned tbh. So IF the breeder is a good one & the either have the colour you want then go for it!
If the rising sun kennel use Astra Mars then they are likey to have some Merles.

Here is Jessie standing in the yard




And a few more

and yes Mars is a beautiful dog!!! They also have 3 blue merle girls... so They have a high possibility of producing a blue merle pup... I think that they're the ones that I'm going to go with, I really don't care about the cost as I can save save save for it