Concerned: STB or PBT? Photos

very true.

i meant reliably, of course, according to their own internal logic.

mind you, evne the DLO's admit its an imperfect science, which 2 of them could disagree on when it comes to the grey areas.

sorry to burst your bubble but an irish staff is not a cover name for people in southern ireland to sell apbts in the uk lol the whole irish thing is not irish as the dogs came from the uk


Frazer of Ireland




Bred in Ireland from pure K.C stock and also known as Boomerang, Frazer of Ireland along with a bitch known as Mandy of Dublin were shipped to M Dann in England as the foundation stock that became known as the "Red Strain" dogs, due to most of them being a deep red colour,although the occasional brindle is thrown. Frazer was regarded as one of the gamest Staffs ever owned by Mr.Dann and when bred to his Mandy bitch produced the deep game Ch.Red Warrior, AKA Dann's Choice.******** ***** Another account showing that along with the"Psycho"line today's "Irish" or "old type" Staff,(whichever "handle" you prefer) is not a euphemism for the American Pit Bull Terrier


The pup looks like it has some ebt in there proberly some psycho blood as its the most peddled bloodline which is stafford with a touch of ebt as its ears give it away certainly aint a apbt;-) do yourself a favour next time and research a dog before buying if the breeder was worth his salt you should of got some form of pedigree you will need to be firm with your dog as those psycho dogs can be a little unstable as Ive had a few in the past;-)

THE PSYCHO STRAIN

The Northford / Psycho Strain is probably the most known strain of what is referred to as the Irish Stafford’s. Like the formation of the Dublin Red Strain, the formation originated with good quality English Stafford’s sent over to Ireland and bred for one purpose only, to work.

Ch.Brinstock Glenagow

Black Tiger

Cork Rose

The well known English Staffordshire Bull Terrier breeder, Bill Boylan bred one of his Ch. Stafford's, Ch. Brinstock Glenagow to a bitch called Dealer's Delight. This mating produced the start of a very game line of dogs, starting with a dog called Black Tiger. This famous trail dog changed owners a great many times and was bred many times. His owners include names like Terry Byrne, George Hegarty and Gerry Allen. This dog was put across a bitch called Cork Rose, who was owned by George Hegarty and if you take a look at Psycho's pedigree, you will see her name 6 times in the 4th generation. Cork Rose was also put across George Crotty's Sam and Tom Haughey's North Star, who’s Sire and Dam were straight Stafford/EBT crosses.

When Black Tiger was mated to Cork Rose they produced a dog that became very known in the Irish Trails as a very good badger dog. This dog was known as The Great Geronimo and as a result of his performance in the trials you will find many top class dogs that has his name in their pedigrees. Geronimo was also put across a bitch called Evergreen’s Tiny Peggy who was also known as Doneal Flynn’s Old Peggy producing Allen’s Peggy.

Allen's Geronimo

Allen's Major

When Allen’s Peggy was mated to Martin Walsh’s Whitey the result was Allen’s Major and Molly. Major was said to have won a few matches and were also said to be as game as any other well bred Stafford and his sister Molly was used in the badger trails and unfortunately got a cut in her artery and bled to death out on a dig, but before her death she was put to her brother Major and from this breeding Gerry Allen got three pups.

Allen’s Bruce was a white male who died from an illness when he was about one year old. Hanlon’s Rahora Lass was a white female with a black patch over her left eye. She was a very small bitch (under 30lbs) and ended up on the yard of P. Murphy who also had the Stormer dog.


Hanlon'sRahoraLass


Ricky's Ch Psycho


All the dogs in Ch. Psycho’s pedigree were tested out and proved to be game in the badger trails of Ireland and much has been said about this breeding. There are many who will say that Ch. Psycho were not a pure Stafford strain since there are some EBT blood in this breeding and in my opinion they are right.

There is a small amount of EBT blood in this line and it comes from Haughey's North Star as both his Sire and Dam were Stafford / EBT crosses. A friend from Derry, Ireland wrote us a letter saying that the strain contained some EBT blood and I'll quote his words.

"”I can say that the Psycho blood is not pure Staff blood, and in that pedigree you will see the name Rowdy. She was owned by Tom Haughey when I met him in Lurgan Trail 1962-63. She was a first class badger bitch who was 1/2 bred Stafford X Bull Terrier. She produced two great sons, Tom's own North Star and his litter brother Blunder's Lad, owned by Jerry McIntyre, who is the brother to Jerome McIntyre. When "Rowdy produced these two sons the Sire was Kilwickie Lad, a great badger dog in the early 1960's, and he too was a 1/2 bred Stafford to Bull Terrier. However, all blood lines produce good and bad. So you take it as you find it.”


All the dogs in Ch. Psycho’s pedigree were tested out and proved to be game in the badger trails of Ireland and much has been said about this breeding. There are many who will say that Ch. Psycho were not a pure Stafford strain since there are some EBT blood in this breeding and in my opinion they are right.

There is a small amount of EBT blood in this line and it comes from Haughey's North Star as both his Sire and Dam were Stafford / EBT crosses. A friend from Derry, Ireland wrote us a letter saying that the strain contained some EBT blood and I'll quote his words.

"”I can say that the Psycho blood is not pure Staff blood, and in that pedigree you will see the name Rowdy. She was owned by Tom Haughey when I met him in Lurgan Trail 1962-63. She was a first class badger bitch who was 1/2 bred Stafford X Bull Terrier. She produced two great sons, Tom's own North Star and his litter brother Blunder's Lad, owned by Jerry McIntyre, who is the brother to Jerome McIntyre. When "Rowdy produced these two sons the Sire was Kilwickie Lad, a great badger dog in the early 1960's, and he too was a 1/2 bred Stafford to Bull Terrier. However, all blood lines produce good and bad. So you take it as you find it.”



Kilwickie Lad


The foundation dogs to the Northford strain were from the same lines as the Flynn strains along with some game show lines that were tested in the Irish Trail. If we follow their pedigrees (below and in the pedigree section) we should be able to find common ancestors on both the Sire and Dam's side.

Let's start with Allen's Geronimo dog. Nicky Sheehan owned a sister of Geronimo and when she was put to Billy Rickard's Tyrone of Cuileog she produced Jackie Adams' Socks aka Derry Macash Rascal and Dick Holland's Mournview Chieftain, which were both known in Ireland for their ability at the badger trails.

Northford Bruce was a half brother of these two well known dogs on the Sire's side and when put to Northford Piggy from the Rapparee line they produced Dave Cooper's Old Sheila,

hello longford

i dont think the OP has a bubble to burst, as it sounds like he doesnt wish the irish staffie as pit bull psuedonymn to be his wish

you may have some expertise, im not going to question that.

however, practically all dog professionals in this area, and more importantly, the authorities and the police have irish staffie down as pit bull psuedonymn.

evne DEFRA say this is so

this may be right or wrong, but, sadly, its an undeniable legal fact.

maYBE both interpretations are right?

I don't think anyone can make the call from photos of a young pup - some look like it's probably a Staffy and some maybe a staffy cross. Don't worry about it being leggy as others have said pups do get leggy before they fill out.

Staffies vary so much, I have 2 prue bred girls, one is 14 inches tall, , the other 16inches and much bigger and broader, My pal has one she is 17 inches and although they are all staffies, all different....

True - my current dog was 17.5 inches when he was younger - he's shrunk a bit with old age. He wasn't from a backyard breeder either - the breeder was a Champ show judge and the sire had 2CCs.

my say would me a staffie x of somekind my daddy used to breed PBT and she for sure looks staffie x to me

you can with this one screams out psycho/ kk blood ears head shape and the fact dad was an irish blue correct me if im wrong but there is only one irish bloodline that carrys blue dogs and the other fact is they generally look like cross breeds unlike the early dogs as they have been heavily inbred more than any other lines as they have been bred for colour and the drop of ebt has become a big drop of ebt blood

At Millie's age ears go all over the place.
She is unlikely to be 100% stafford as her sire is supposed to be an Irish blue, not a breed recognised by the KC.

This does not mean you have a pitbull, but we have to remember that it is not the breed that is illegal but a dog that looks like a type of dog that is illegal.

So just follow the advice given by many and make sure you have the best socialised and trained dog and enjoy her.

Fingers crossed they throuh out DDA with the new draft bill.

Correct me if im wrong but a pitbull can be a mixture of breeds that has no bullbreed in it,
it is a type I was talking about the apbt that is a breed not a type.

The irish lads I know what bred a lot of these dogs will tell you there is no apbts in them and they hung peds and made up stories so there dog was made to be a legend with certain dogs being chs then sold them to the gullible english man and now the truth is coming out and the lies unravelled people thinking they had brought tested dogs when they had brought cold curs and was sending over any dogs they could get there hands on including strays if they were a certain colour to make a quick buck

Then when they made enough money they went and brought proper apbts and turned there backs on the staffords they certainly didnt start putting there prized american imports other 2nd rate staffords and laughed all the way to the bank

It would be good as it would stop all the cross breeding if the DDA got thrown out just like they have done in holland and hopefully be able to legally bring in some american imports responsible owners only with breeding restrictions

@ others: Thanks for the kind comments. It is the shape i am concerned about, i'd hate to be stopped by an arrogant PC that assumes she is a PB type due to her shape, and voila - dog gone. We'll see how she turns out watch this space.

@ longford: i don't want her to be a PB, nor do i want her as she matures to assume the shape of a PB type, so there is no bubble to burst.
I had a concern, i aired it, and you have come back with some great and vast historical data...that vaguely links SBT's everywhere, in with the dealings of the Irish, way back in the day. Thanks anyway though for the enlightenment, as by looking at it, it would seem that she is simply an SBT cross of a sort having come from a pairing involving an 'Irish Blue' whose bloodline was created back when the dealings began, but is unlikely carrying any APBT gene now that the money has been made and the APBT's are being bred to each other, and not with "2nd rate SBT's".
She is stubborn, but i assume that this is because she is puppy and not due to any bloodlines, however i will keep an eye on that so again, thanks for the heads up.

Re DDA 1991: until very recently i'd always been a keeper of exotics (large boidae) and looking through the legislation surrounding the instigation and removal of animal related Acts i would think it unlikely that any government would remove so simply any Act that is 'supposedly' in place to 'protect' the public. As a group of keepers of large snakes we all looked at the dangers of the governement irrationally authorising such Acts as we'd all suddenly have to get licenses etc, but the procedure is quite different to what we all expected, and so too is the procedure to remove any legislation. However, amendments can be made overnight! Unfortunately the PB type element to the DDA 1991 is the key issue in the current Act, as no specific DNA exists on record to be able to determine which dogs (should they look like the APBT shape) carry the PB gene; ergo it's all done on visual judgement.
The same goes for 3 other dog types too, but i cannot remember the names for those breeds. (something argentino, something brazillian, and something japanese)

She is lovely! Don't worry about too much, staffies come in a range of shapes and sizes anyway, just enjoy her and train her well! x

she is gorgeous, that second last pic is just staffie staring back at you, but she is young so will fill out and grow into her legs I'm sure, try not to worry too much, shes still a baby you should be enjoying every minute, they don't stay babies for long xx

I agree. She's lovely. Just havew fun with her and stuff what the general public say.

I'ver had my big GSD called a black and brown wolf before now!! So you really have nothign to worry about.

Laura xx