Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

Yip and obviously more of a business venture than anything else Mmmmm who be Jose Cruz

Yes this is the Cruz Family.

arent these the main two tests that flatties have done?

I have closely followed this thread and had decided to stop posting after No.180. The whole thing was getting and has become ridiculous in my opinion. However, I can‘t resist having one more go.

At the end of the day a well bred flatcoat will stand on its own merits. This lovely breed has little to prove - it has already been proven.

Anyone with a modicum of sense who wishes to be involved with the breed will research, research, research, join the Society and then go to a flatcoat person with proven credibility - someone who will be involved with working and showing successfully, someone who loves the breed for the attributes it has (thankfully there are still people very with these qualities around in the UK - can't speak for USA). I maybe an older person - but I do know it is plain stupid to “throw the baby out with the bath water”.

It is very easy to lose credibility and Chatham Hill has been hung by her own petard on quite a few occasions throughout this highly entertaining thread.

In comparison with many breeds the flatcoat is a healthy, attractive, relatively unspoilt breed which has a superb temperament (this is what Chatham Hill finds so attractive and possibly lucrative - a naturally beautiful dog with great ability in many areas of endeavour. She won't make one iota of difference to the breed - she may create something called a Chatham Hill Retriever, but she will never produce a top class flatcoat - yellow, black, liver or sky blue pink. As I said before she is an opportunistic renegade - who is ploughing her own furrow.

I will say no more now as I have no wish to be ruder than I already have been, but I will say that as with any living thing (humans included) - perfection has not been created and will not be achieved with dogs or humans - I believe introducing other breeds and breeding crossbreeds will breed in as many faults as it attempts to remedy.

Below is the Mission Statement from the Chatham Hill site - I have written what I think to many elements in red.


Mission Statement on Chatham Hill RetrieversTM:
Retrievers have always been known for their kind, biddable gentle nature and strong family bond. The working instinct of the Flat-Coated Retriever (FCR) coupled with its calmness when indoors provides an exceptional companion for the family and a dog ready to turn it on for the hunter. (do not assume this breed will be calm indoors - they can be quite creative in their destructiveness - unless of course you always keep them crated indoors - then expect vocal protests and a very unhappy possibly neurotic flatcoat) The shortcoming for many with a family dog in mind is typically the size of the dog. Whereas, the FCR is a formula for a great family companion it falls short of the mark in most cases based on its size alone.(1) The main fear from many FCR breeders is that a family with small children and one of these dogs that can grow as big as 70Lbs or more is a recipe for disaster. (2)
[COLOR="Red[I]"](1) Are you being prejudiced against size ?
(2) The accurate reason is that flatcoated retrievers are very boisterous, fast and enthusiastic dogs inside and outside - size alone has little to do with it. Unless they are sensitively trained they can be real hooligans - all their lives.

American Cocker Spaniels are sporting dogs with even proportion just like the larger retrievers and in areas where the genetic diversity is weak in one breed it can find some merit from mixing with the other. (3)In many cases the diversity created by mixing breeds with similar proportions will yield a healthier result in their offspring and add desired traits from both breeds into the mix.
(3) So you will make a downsized flatcoat type from this mix will you. You should not forget the undesired traits, health problems and faults will be added into the mix from both sides as well -it is impossible just to take any positives you think will be of benefit. Our Goal is to use our out cross to create a healthier dog and ultimately use the exceptional results from future litters to add some much needed genetic diversity into the FCR breed. (The dogs bred will NOT be flatcoated retrievers, simply mixes with virtues and faults associated with both breeds - you cannot touch the actual flatcoat breed as a whole or hope to influence it because you are not able to register your crosses - they are just that cross-bred dogs and always will be - who are you trying to fool? With only a few hundred dogs registered annually; the diversity for the FCR can’t recover from the decades of line-breeding that have brought the gene pool to where it is now. By trying to do what you are hoping to do you will not make one bit of difference to the flatcoated retriever as a whole - what you will have will be a flatcoat type of dog. Relative to many other breeds the purebred flatcoat is a natural and healthy breed there is not much wrong with it and this is due to careful and conscientious breeders. Other breeds like Goldens, Labrador and Cocker Spaniels have gone through their time of popularity and over breeding to where their populations alone give them a better fighting chance to breed for a better dog without having to outcross. But, for a rare breed like the FCR out crossing may be the only way to reverse the damage that has been done. (The flatcoat is not a rare breed - it is simply not one of the most popular breeds and has not been overbred - as you well know and wish to take advantage of) (Absolute tosh - more harm will be done by out crossing - there will be a real pick and mix resulting and you will not have an accurate way of determining or fixing traits without in-breeding from the resulting crosses - this will unlock a Pandora‘s Box of problems, health, temperament, everything). Again, just like with our Flatcoats, our main concern and goal with our Chatties is to breed for a healthier long living specimen that will ultimately give back to the FCR some much needed genetic diversity. The specimens you breed will NOT be flatcoated retrievers and can never be flat coated retrievers - just another designer mixed breed. You cannot create an improved flatcoat this way and then give it to the breed as some wonderful gift - you are on your own with this - a renegade - and always will be.

Apologies to everyone for the length of this post - its the last I will say on the debate.

aeroler, good points, I'm just aghast that Chatham Hill thinks they are doing the FCR any justice with their actions and/or providing a good/better alternative.

Aerolor, I am surprised you have been so measured and mannered in your post, considering Chatham Hill kept getting your name wrong, but was able to spell just about everything else in the thread

How can they possibly think the FCR can be improved upon, obviously as soon as a breed is deemed pedigree the gene pool is closed but reputable breeders test for the major problems that occur within the breed. The FCR is impeccably bred for it's purpose. I went onto the Chatham Hill site:-( and the most obvious difference between with their 'TMd' retrievers and pureblood FCRs is size so are they trying to breed 'apartment size' gundogs , it's so sad what people will do for money, they certainly don't seem to have any genuine interest in helping the breed as a whole or else they'd carry out the tests that would help to prevent genetic problems within their litters.

Oh bum, just noticed I spelt their name wrong too! Should really pay more attention, it is the detail that counts, after all!!

The silence is deafening huh?

Snicker. Lol

Chuckle, chuckle, snort

And a Mars bar!

That makes sense - the two parents would need yellows (either goldies or Labs) behind them - and the yellow recessive gene to have survived the generations.

Having said that - whatever colour - those are the weirdest FCR I've ever seen Even if they are in a possible but disallowed FCR - then colour aside I would expect them to look like the breed they are supposed to be

Yellow flatcoats are very much flatcoats. They do not normally look like golden retrievers and have all the characteristics of the flatcoat breed. Yellow flatcoats are not freaks or poor examples of the breed, indeed many of the breeds top show winners have yellow siblings, parents who are yellow gene carriers or other close relatives who carry the gene.

Indeed, I think a number of breeds found themselves struggling a little post war.
I agree...a FCR should look and act like one no matter what colour it is.

Actually...unless the breed standard is changed they are just that as they are disallowed and therefore poor examples of the breed. Many winners may have yellow siblings, that doesn't mean that they (the yellow sibling) is a great example of the breed, it means that the winner is. The yellow sibling would not be allowed on the ring.

I reiterate, I do like them and would happily have one IF in all other ways it looked like a FCR and acted like a FCR. I would NOT ever, in a million years, go to a breeder who didn't health test and who was trying to breed yellow on purpose with no evidence to say they had anything to bring to it.

We went to a sanctioned AKC match kinda like a fun match and showed the Yellow FCR in the ring for conformation. He went around once the judged checked him and then said he was disqualifed based on the color. But the judge said he was standard in everything and a good looking dog--just the wrong color.

We actually did if for the shock and awe value --it was priceless!!

Great day!

Gosh, you know how to have fun huh {snickers, mars, toblerone}
Health tests though....longevity...

I prefer 3 musketeers, actually.

I prefer health tested parents for my dogs...

They have all been tested and on the day they took the tests they were all fine!!! Didn't I say that.