Staffy cross pitbull? Discussions

Hi,
My friend's just got a new puppy, she hasn't seen the parents but has been told that she's a "pure red staff", she's really lovely but they're worried that she might be half pit because apparently everyone who's seen her has said this (altho none of them actually know anything about dogs!), so she asked me to ask some knowledgeable people
i dont have a pic of her, sorry i know this makes it v difficult, but she is red, very wrinkly and very stocky, has green eyes and a pink nose (the reason everyone says pit). She's got quite a short nose. I've googled loads of staffy and pit pics, also crosses, but either people are misjudging their dogs or just plain lying cos all the pics seem to contradict each other, to the extent that I've seen the exact same pic to show 3 different breeds, lol!
Anyone able to help her on this?

I suggest she returns the pup to the breeder.

why? is it likely she's a pit then? is it pit crosses that are banned too, or just full pit?

You cant get a Pitbull cross without a Pitbull!! So yes is illegil.
If she is happy with the dog i would make sure she calls it a Staff and not mentions the pit part to anybody

Hiya
Pit crosses...anything of 'type' are part of the DDA act and legally have to be neutered and muzzled when out.
I don't think your friend needs fear the temperament of her dog at all though, like any breed it would just need socialising etc.

Is it a pit? No idea...not even the experts can always decide on that one!
Thsi may help clarify...

Taken from...http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/domestic/ddogsleaflet.pdf

More info on it all http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/welfare/domestic/dogs.htm

Would you buy a joint of `probably` lamb? Would you buy a fridge that might be either Indesit or possibly something illegal?
Does your sister have the dog`s papers? Is it vaccinated? Wormed? Did she see both parents? Are the breeders offering back-up and advice? Are they willing to take the pup back if something goes wrong?
If the answers to the above are mainly No, ask yourself why.

Well apparently they have 'seen' papers from P.D.S.A about vacs but didnt get given them, so they're trusting that she's had them but the papers could have been for any dog really. The breeders offered to bring the parents to see her (bizarre in itself) but havent bothered. I think it's highly unlikely they'll offer any backup at all, personally i think they were desperate to get rid of her also they said she was only 10 weeks but she's much bigger (stockier) than my 12 week staff pup! I've told her not to mention her doubts to anyone (she wants to ask the vet!) but apparently the pink nose and green eyes are a "dead giveaway"?

one thing to keep in mind is this,a apbt[American pitbull terrier]is neither short muzzled,wrinkled or squat,those sound like the description of a type of dog known in the USA as a American bully.If i was the owners of aforementioned dog i might as well say it is a boxer staff cross,or visla for that matter.jmo

Your friend was not wise taking any pup from the circumstances you describe. She let her heart rule her head and now has a beautiful puppy of unknown parentage. Could be a pit, but even if it's not... Lets say that colouring and build comes from a mix of Vizla, Staff and american bulldog. Or even is in fact a pure staff. She doesn't know the health or temperament of any of the parents or foundation dogs of her pup, she will have no back up from the breeder.

For now, I'm not sure what to advise. If she has her heart set on the dog and will keep it, then socialisation is the key. Make sure the little pup is mixed with lots of other dogs and socialised at puppy classes. Even pitbulls can make wonderful pets if treated and trained right, but the little guy will likely grow into a big powerful dog capable of serious harm, so she needs to have good control.

But above all she needs to confirm definitely the parentage of the pup to put her mind at ease or stop even speculating that the pup might be a pit. Stop any one dead if they even suggest it. That sort of casual rumour, even if meant well or done behind a smile to add a bit of excitement to the puppy's origin, could cost the little thing it's life.

If she really doesn't know the parentage and the breeders wont show her the parents, if it concerns her at al she has to ask herself honestly. If my puppy does turn out to be a pitbull, what am I going to do? Will she register, neuter and muzzle it, or euthanise it. Because if the latter is true, then she should hand the puppy over to a rescue organisation like rescue remedies now to give the little thing the best chance of getting in to a breed knowledgeable home.

It may be a "french mastiff" known as a dogue de bordaux. There were used to make the old family red nose lines of the pitbulls almost 100 years ago. The "o.f.r.n" look alot like the dogue de, BUT, the "de" is a mastiff and will have loads of wrinkles till it gets older, and at 10 or 12 weeks will dwarf a pit or staff pup. Also, pits are not illegal everywhere nor are all BSL'd breeds, check with your local animal warden/control. If they are illegal where you are, not only can you get in trouble (even if you didn't know) but they can stop a shady breeder, also see if your state has a "lemon puppy law". NEVER BUY A PUP IF THERE ARE NO PAPERS AND NO PARENTS! Pup could have been stolen!!!! It happens. Papers should come with any pup (i.e.- shot record, birthdate, "breeder" or previous owner info-any other info is bonus) GOOD LUCK!

http://images.google.com/images?q=d...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1

The douge de bourdeaux was not used in creation of the ofrn strain of apbt,they are a result of inbreeding during the 1800's in Scotland and Ireland producing dogs known as red smuts and blue Paul's.The French mastiff influence on some lines of apbt didn't happen until the 1990's involving a dog named eddingtons "wanna be a whopper",And these enriched lines of apbt are frowned upon by the general apbt fancy and bred specifically for weight pull.heres a little history on the old family f red nosed apbts by richard stratton.He looks no more out of place in the Ancient landscapes of 16th century paintings than he does in the ultramodern setting. It is beyond my capabilities to imagine an end to him, for every generation seems to supply a nucleus of hard core devotees completely committed to the breed. In any case, you can look into the murky past, and you will find it difficult to discern a beginning place for the breed and fortunately, the future seems to threaten no demise either.

Old strains are a particularly fascinating part of this tradition, and the Old Family Red Nose is one of the better-known old strains. The appearance of the red-nosed dogs always attracts attention, but it takes a little getting used to for some people to consider them truly beautiful. However no one denies that they radiate "class."

Characteristically, a dog of the red-nosed strain has a copper-red nose, red lips, red toe nails, and red or amber eyes. Some think the strain was bred for looks. Others consider any dog that just happens to have a red nose to be pure Old Family Red Nose. It is hoped that the following will dispel such notions. About the middle of the last century, there was a family of pit dogs in Ireland bred and fought chiefly in the counties of Cork and Kerry that were known as the "Old Family." In those days, pedigrees were privately kept and jealously guarded. Purity of the strains was emphasized to the extent that breeders hardly recognized another strain as being the same breed. For that reason all the strains were closely inbred. And whenever you have a closed genetic pool of that type, you are likely to have a slide toward the recessive traits, because the dominants, once discarded, are never recaptured. Since red is recessive to all colors but white, the "Old Family" eventually became the "Old Family Reds." When the dogs began coming to America, many were already beginning to show the red nose.

The "Old Family" dogs found their way to America mainly via immigrants. For example, Jim Corcoran came to this country to fight the World Heavyweight champion John L. Sullivan, and stayed to become a Boston policeman. He sent for dogs from his parents back in Ireland, and his importations and expertise as a great breeder have earned him a prominent place in American Pit Bull Terrier history. Many other Irish immigrants also sent back to their families to request for dogs, and the "Old Family" and related strains became firmly established in the United States.

At this point, there are several factors that are somewhat confusing to a student of the breed. For one thing, the term "Family dogs" was used in two ways: It could mean a strain of dogs that was a family unto itself that was kept by a number of unrelated people in Ireland, or it could refer to a strain of dogs that was kept and preserved through the years by a family group. However, the old Family Reds seem to be of the first category. Another point that arises is that with all these importations from Ireland (and there were importations from other countries, too-including Spain), where do we get off calling our breed the American Pit Bull Terrier! Well ... That's a point! The breed does not really belong to any one country or even any one era! However, I don't believe many people are in favor of changing the name of the breed even though it is not strictly an American breed. For that matter, , it is not really a Bull Terrier either! But the name American Pit Bull Terrier has become part of that tradition we were talking about, and I think most of us prefer to keep it as a formal name for the breed.
Back to the Old Family Reds. The first big splash made by the red noses was back around 1900 when the great breeder William J. Lightner, utilizing Old Family Red bloodlines, came up with some red-nosed dogs that really made a name for themselves. Now Lightner once told me that he did not breed for that red-nosed coloration. In fact, he did not even like it and he only put up with it because the individual dogs were of such high quality. Eventually, Lightner gave up on the red-nosed strain when he moved from Louisiana to Colorado, where he came up with a new strain that consisted of small dark-colored dogs with black noses. He had given up on the other strain because they were running too big for his taste and because he didn't like the red noses.

At this point in our story, we come upon a comical, but highly-respected, figure in the personage of Dan McCoy. I have heard old-time dog men from all over the country talk about this man. Apparently, he was an itinerant fry cook and not much of a success in life judged by normal standards, but he didn't care about that. But what he did care about were Pit Bull Dogs, and he had a wealth of knowledge about the breed. His uncanny ability to make breedings that "clicked" made him a respected breeding consultant and a most welcome guest at any dog man's house--even if he had just dropped off a freight train!
Always with his ear to the ground regarding anything that involved APBT's, McCoy got wind of the fact that an old Frenchman in Louisiana by the name of Bourgeous had preserved the old Lightner red-nosed strain. So he and Bob Hemphill went to that area, and with the aid of Gaboon Trahan of Lafayette, they secured what was left of the dogs. McCoy took his share to the Panhandle of Texas and placed them with his associates L.C. Owens, Arthur Harvey, and Buck Moon. He then played a principal role in directing the breedings that were made by these fanciers. And from this enclave came such celebrated dogs as Harvey's "Red Devil" and Owens (Ferguson) "Centipede." Hemphill eventually kept only dogs of the red-nosed strain. According to Hemphill, it was McCoy that first starting using the term "Old Family Red Nose" for the strain.

Another breeder who was almost synonymous with the red-nosed strain was Bob Wallace. However, Bob's basic bloodlines was not pure Old Family Red Nose. But in the late 40's, he was looking for the red-nosed strain in order to make an "outcross.." (Bob was a scrupulously careful breeder who planned his breedings years in advance.) Unfortunately, he found that the strain was nearly gone, most of it having been ruined by careless breedings. He managed to obtain seven pure red-noses of high quality whose pedigrees he could authenticate. The strain was subsequently saved for posterity and in the 1950's became the fashionable strain in Pit Bull circles. In fact, it was Bob Wallace who wrote an article in 1953 called "There is no magic in Red Noses" in which he tried to put a damper on the overly enthusiastic claims being made by some of the admirers of the strain. No more fervent admirer of the Old Family Reds ever lived than Wallace, but he obviously felt that the strain could stand on its own merits.

Many strain have been crossed with the Old Family Reds at some time in their existence. Consequently, nearly any strain will occasionally throw a red-nosed pup. To many fanciers, these red-nosed individuals are Old Family Red Noses, even though the great preponderance of their blood is that of other strains. Sometimes such individuals will fail to measure up and thereby reflect undeserved discredit on the red-nosed strain. However, as Wallace said, the red noses should not be considered invincible either. They produce their share of bad ones as well as good ones--just as all strains do.
As a strain, the Old Family Red Nose has several things going for it. First, it is renowned for its gameness. Second, some of the most reputable breeders in all Pit Bull History have contributed to the preservation and development of the strain. People like Lightner, McClintock, Menefee and Wallace, just to mention a few. Finally, as McNolty said in his 30-30 Journal (1967) "Regardless of one's historical perspective, these old amber-eyed, red-nosed, red-toe-nailed, red-coated dogs represent some of the most significant pit bull history and tradition that stands on four legs today."

I stand corrected. Insomnia sucks, as I wrote the last statement quickly after 3 days no sleep. My apologies for the short and slightly skewed post. Thank you for the awesome history lesson and reminders of our great breeds. Any time you want to talk pits or bully dogs in general, please message me! I am excited to find someone who is as passionate about the history as I am, Thanks again for the correction!

Its pathetic but its kinda my life.I eat breath and sleep apbt,this is the only non apbt forum im a member of,just to get a diffrent prespective from outsiders and to educate when i can,if peoples minds are open to it.
One thing that gets confusing to newbies to the breed,theres a game strain of apbts known as bodreaux,bred by world famous dog man floyd bodreaux who was just arrested last year i believe then set free for lack of evidence once his yard was destroyed.And bordeaux is very close at a glance so i could see that causing confusion at times.

It sounds like your friend got exactly what she bought. There are numerous discriptions of this breed throughout
the terrior forum. If she dicides to keep the pup (a little late) I hope she will be a responsible owner and educate herself as well as her pup. Just a suggestion, keep her mouth shut and keep her pup out of trouble. Love,training so you have control, and socialize. Good luck with the new pup.

If she is stockier it may be that she is the old style of longer legged staff.As some other posts have said it is hard to tell with a cross breed whether there is american pitbull in her bloodline.But as you may know breeders of the more unprofessional status tend to not breed their staffordshire bull terriers in the standard so you end up with different sizes.If you could post a photo i/we could try to provide more help.

its most proberly crossed witha lab

Some times Staffords are born with red noses, its called a dudley nose. It is excepted as a fault. Staffords that are liver coloured also have light noses.

Green eyes I have never seen on a Stafford

I'd just echo what other people have said here really. it was a bad idea to buy a pup without papers or seeing both parents in their homes but it too late to worry about that now.

I've no idea if the dog is a pit cross but if they even suscpect that is the case the best advice is not to mention it to anyone. Even if the dog is 100% staffy, it only takes one wrong comment to the wrong person to cause an ongoing legal problem with the local council. If the dog is half or even full pit that would make it no more dangerous than any other dog, quality of breeding apart that is.

Well lets hope the pup is not from dubious stock, and in the future displays its heritage , and unless you know the parents of the pup and their temperaments, you have no idea what it will turn out like.

Nature V nurture plays a huge part in the temperament of any dog.


When people tell others "dont mention the pitbull" in the dog, I wonder how they woudl react if said dog attacked theirs..


I also agree , its not a good idea to buy from unknown stock or people, spending the rest of the dogs life wondering if its a pit x , and at some point having it seized , is not something I would want to consider living my life by.


The pup may well be an innocent xbreed.. but I guess the new owner will never know!! unless she sees the parents!

are we saying APBT or pitbull as what is a pitbull?also are you saying from your post is if it has this in the blood it will go out attacking dogs as I see it they are no different than a stafford.