Border collie information wanted urgently. General Chat

I am Janet Beale; I am the founder and owner of "Astra" prefixed ISDS reg. Border collie Sheepdogs also recognized as Astra Sheepdog Centre.

Visitors are always most welcome to visit at any time by appointment (short notice acceptable).

I have just been made aware of this rather public accusation and wish to put the records straight. This is a long post as it has been escalating 5 years or more.

Please give me the courtesy to read to the end before you make any judgments.

I owe my success and livelihood and enjoyment of life to sheep farming, sheepdogs and shepherding. The success of my sheepdogs in competitive sheepdog trials and the interaction with the farming communities around the world turned my hobby gradually over the years, and without my realization, into a successful international business.

Nobody - has a right to even attempt to either ruin no someone’s life or livelihood without substantial proof behind their accusations.

To hide behind a “non de plume” is not acceptable when making accusations like this and since I know where this person lives – I have been to her house, and she has named me in public posts for many years – I will therefore afford her that courtesy of identity. However I can prove, beyond doubt, all I will say.

I have always been dedicated to the welfare and improvement of the Border collie breed and in the last 25 years have done MORE than the International Sheepdog Society “rules for registration” require in working towards prevention of health issues in my bloodlines. We do not register with the Kennel Club.

• 1991 - We eye tested every litter for CEA until we knew DNA parentage status in 2005
• 2001 - We microchipped every puppy = ISDS made it a rule in 2013
• 2000 - We started hip scoring and are continuing to do so = ISDS has not yet considered this.
• 2005 - We started DNA testing for CEA = ISDS made it a rule in 2013
• 2012 - We started a Goniodysgenesis (Primary Glaucoma) of all our Stud dogs (bitches will be done as finance allows) = ISDS has not yet considered this
• 2012 - We started a TNS testing program starting with all of our Stud dogs (bitches will be done as finance allows) = ISDS has not yet considered this.
• 2000 - Our own stud dogs or their parents/grandparents are Hip scored and many of our bitches or their parents/grandparents are Hip scored, because it is not currently accepted in the ISDS dog it is very difficult to find outside stud dogs or bitches who are hip scored therefore we also breed from proven working lines in which the dogs are still working on farms at 10 to 14 years of age – no other breed can compete with this fact. (We DO NOT believe in placing our dogs at risk under sedation for something which has not been a problem in the REAL working sheepdog) = ISDS has not yet considered this.
• We are still so confident in the health of our dogs that we offer a guarantee on hips as described on our website.

We currently DO NOT use Anadune to report the health status of our dogs.

As we are fastidious about information and proof which Anadune does not yet request the submission of veterinary evidence – nor do other online health databases for that matter. We are working on the development of a website to display all our dogs in great detail, together with their health tests, I am the web designer and it is complicated and very time consuming and is not expected to be released for another 12/18 months.

I also do not believe in KC registered border collies as the Border collie is a herding breed and should be bred to work sheep as the sole reason (I keep to train or sell pups to farmer to establish this) as without the herding of sheep the Border collie would not exist.

I believe that any one breeding the Border collie without working the dogs in a full blown real day to day job on the farm is doing the breed a disservice.

I run a farm - albeit small, since breaking my leg in 2008 - so I also do some contract shepherding duties to keep the dogs entertained, as well as keeping a rare breed pedigree sheep flock of 50 ewes.

All our dogs are in some form of training to work sheep so that they can find suitable working homes on their retirement from breeding and most importantly; when the RIGHT person and the RIGHT job/situation presents itself .

For me it is certainly not about the money, everything I make goes back into the breed. (Please visit and you will see for yourself). It is about my passion to improve the breed and to help new and existing sheepdog handlers worldwide to improve their handling and training skills.

I am proud that my dogs have:-
Won open sheepdog trials around the world,
Help farmers tend their flocks in numerous countries,
Yet they still also make
Agility champions,
Working trials champions’,
Obedience competitors
To top it all
"Astra" border collies have integrated and become fantastic family pets for 100's of owners all over the globe.

This success is due to the care and attention to detail in our selection process to find great owners, unfortunately; and sadly we do sometime make mistakes in our selection of owners. . However we learn from our experience - we do not hide, and have continued to adapt and improve whilst still maintaining openness about our dogs. – I expect the same courtesy from our owners.

Our success is directly due to our Owners who look after our pups as they were their children, it is also due to a great many visitors to the centre who play and handle our pups, but it is also due to the work my students past and present place into the pups when they are with us, this then helps to develop their temperament and provides good socialization for the pup to be whatever our owners want them to be.

How I wish that I had seen this post before I sold Caroline Cece another TWO "Astra" dogs in 2011/12, however this forum post may well give my lawyer all the proof they need to establish that;

• Caroline had prior ulterior motives to purchasing additional puppies from me.
• She has and to date is still causing major unrest and disruption on our owners by harassing them and using her cohorts to send by Message and email, which includes similar accusations against me, she is using clever manipulation of vulnerable individuals to gain support for her cause. (We can establish proof of association with cohorts by screen shots)
• Even after her removal from and the final closure (due to my illness caused by stress) of our very public, highly successful and extremely happy 'another site' group of over 275 "Astra" Sheepdog Owners, she has continued her coercion of our "Astra" owners - we have proof of this too.
• Additionally after her final removal from our group and directly due to her coercive talents, Caroline went on to purchase a third "Astra" of very similar lines, from an unfortunate individual who had found themselves in difficult circumstance (if states clearly on my website that owners have to advise me if their circumstances change and they need to re-home their dog to give us the first opportunity to help).
• There is also good evidence for us to believe that she will breed from at least one of these three "Astra" dogs despite her claims against their bloodlines - (Additional screenshots are available as evidence to this).

All Caroline had to do was provide me with PROOF, as requested, of the veterinary Diagnosis, we could then have worked together to contact “Astra” owners and other close relatives of her dog to gather information and to arrange DNA submission to research bodies, -

However without PROOF what right have I to scare my owners???????

Why would I, or any other breeder worth their salt; change a well researched, well documented, long established breeding program using proven dogs from real and hard working bloodlines; dogs with generations of healthy working dogs on supposition alone???

As a responsible owner and in her own words “Breeder”; Caroline Cece when requested, should have supplied veterinary evidence that Shyla was fitting this should have included (in a proper veterinary report) - the procedures used and the process of elimination followed with her vets to reach a diagnosis.

She has always refused to give me this veterinary report. There is more to this with proof, please read on ............ at the bottom.

I wish to point out that my guarantees have been on my website for almost 10 years, basically in the same format but with a few recent adjustments, such as the section -

On Border Collie Health - As an Astra Sheepdog owner you are required to notify us: - within this page:- [link removed]

Yes, I read the article, spoke with Hilary Jones myself, I carried out lengthy additional research - spoke with leading pathologists, my vets, animal breeding specialists and finally made my decision based; on the fact that Caroline; could not or would not, provide me with veterinary proof and her attitude had been one of attack – for this reason I could not take her claim seriously.

But I did sell Bell, the dam of Shyla, as a partly trained working sheepdog (almost all our older breeding bitches go to working homes when they leave us) - and when I found her new owner was breeding with her, and I had, to date, NOT heard of any additional reports from my owners of any previous pups out of Bell that were afflicted - I decided to purchase puppies from this breeder; with the sole aim of ensuring that I was able to keep in touch with as many puppies of this line to establish for myself as far as possible, if there were in fact any problems within the line – to date all reports have been negative for epilepsy or other health issues.

I no longer have any dogs from these lines (which were great working dogs and it is a great loss) in my breeding programme.

Unfortunately, in my experience it is rare for people to read the small print of terms and conditions in a contract/user manual etc and I know that the following is also huge problem for any good breeder;

People do not read and if they do seldom understand a dog’s pedigree; certainly most people rarely have enough detailed knowledge of the individual dogs within a breed of show dog. However the ISDS reg. working border collies are extremely more complex, in that they have characteristics and requirement far in excess to a show or pet dog.
Even the very experienced breeder, trainers/handlers of the Border collie are seldom able to predict the potential; let alone the hidden defect within that document.
Understanding this, perchance you would then agree, that a professional breeder and trainer of real working sheepdogs and instructor of sheepdog handlers worldwide, with many years of dedicated and passionate experience therefore far more chance of achieving this crystal ball feat than a layman?

This lack of knowledge of in depth breeding and genetics and coupled with lack of an extensive hands on experience, working with the herding instinct and working ability within the Border collie; makes it difficult for these non working sheepdog owners to understand the principles of breeding border collie and it is a direct cause for scaremongering within the breed.

As science and research into genetics and breeding of dogs and other animals develop. I am constantly working and educating myself so that we can continually advance, our ideas, adding and updating my guidelines, in the effort to be a progressive and ethical breeder. However, I am not breeding pets, I breed working sheepdogs, as the sole aim of my breeding program - I am breeding working dogs and therein lies a huge dilemma for a breeder like myself as we are judged by pet owners who have little knowledge of why our dogs exist. The breed only exist in this form because they have been bred for 100's years as working dogs to do a job for humans, for them to be a companion animal to us surely is the icing on the top.

I have diligently over 25 years of breeding, training and selling sheepdogs, using the “The Sale of Goods Act”, as our guidance; which places the onus is on the purchaser to provide the proof that the goods are faulty and/or at the discretion of the seller; it is also accepted that returning the goods for examination happens BEFORE an exchange or full/partial refund, gesture of goodwill etc - may or may not be issued - depending on each and every individual situation.

Unfortunately with puppies and dogs; “The Sale of Goods Act” is not adequate and certainly it is not that simple nor clearly defined as with an inanimate object
Because of emotional attachment to the puppy/dog even within minutes/hours of purchase, this emotion often prevents them releasing the puppy/dog to be returned to the breeder.
If this is the case, and the owner still requires compensation it becomes more complicated and therefore it is essential for the owner to provide absolute definitive proof of any defect when making their request. In my experience this emotional attachment leads to hot tempers and fall outs, this is very detrimental to resolving on any issues.
It is well proven that even a dog; will mirror the actions of another dog, this is true of human nature.
Caroline is a professional dog trainer and should know this. Calm and methodical approach almost always brings far better desired results, than going on the attack – again this is proven in dog training.


I would now like to share with you some of the PROOF which is part of a public conversation (the rest is not directly related to her post here) on someone’s 'another site' page on the 18th August 2013. I have the entire article together with additional screenshots taken from 'another site' over the last 18 months; this is all the proof I require to take this person to court. This shows without doubt that I am still waiting for proof from Caroline Cece. I is also proof that she now has made accusations against the additional "astra" dogs purchased from me in 2011/12


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Janet Beale Please see our Breeding Policies These have always been in place but we have made them even clearer.
If you have issues with the health of any of our dogs then please feel free to contact us in writing as describe on this page. [link removed]
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Caroline Cece Sad fact Miss Beale, what you practice and what you preach are worlds apart.
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Janet Beale Is that ALL you have to say Caroline?
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Janet Beale I will be GLAD to continue this discussion on your wall
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Janet Beale In public
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Caroline Cece Go for it Janet Beale. To be honest i have better things to do then feed your Ego.
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Janet Beale I wish to point out that you nor any other individual has supplied me with written veterinary evidence of anything you say my dogs are affected with. As follows –
Astra Chello, :- you placed accusations on 'another site' that she has hip dysplasia -
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Janet Beale Astra Fable you placed accusations on 'another site' of her close relative being epileptic insinuating that it was hereditary,
Astra Rua recently purchased from a third party, you placed accusations on 'another site' of her close relative being epileptic insinuating that it was hereditary,
Astra Shyla accused of being epileptic despite repeated requests from me for a veterinary report.
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Janet Beale I have not received any written information from any owners regarding these accusations.
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Janet Beale I am waiting for you to add me as a "friend" so I can place my information onto your page.
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Caroline Cece Janet Beale go and get a life. There is epilepsy and if there was a dna test i would be first in the cue. As for Shyla you know there is bcause when you bred, you knew Briar was put to sleep and also produced it. Now off you go and pester those that believe in you. Stay out my life as its been a better one without you in it. I dont have to give you Sod all. When i imformed you about Shyla, all you did was offer to give me my money back and take Shyla back to Dunnichen ( no go area ) When i asked you what you would do with her, your reply was put her to sleep. Think that says it all about who you are.
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Caroline Cece AS for Chello. you seen the report from John Ferguson. Lucky i did hip score her.
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Janet Beale You always revert back to Shyla therefore your reply speaks volumes, I repeatedly requested you to supply WRITTEN evidence regarding Shyla - That was a long time ago.and without the requested PROOF from your vet I did what I could at the time - I would have established FIRST for myself that Shyla was epileptic and then did what I thought was best for her in the situation at that time.
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Janet Beale I believe you had Chello hip scored what were her results? I do not have a copy even though I requested a copy of that report from John Ferguson which I believe also states that the dog had an injury due to a fall?
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Janet Beale You obviously know something I do not - Briar who where the parents?
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Caroline Cece None of your Dam Buisness Janet Beale. You will never ever be informed about any of my dogs as i do not see you as a Sympathetic Breeder. As for the fall, its an excuse for you as per usual. As for Briar you are talking a lot of Bull considering it was in the Isds sheepdog Magazine. Now just please leave me alone. Thank you.
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Janet Beale Why would you want to hip score Chello as you say there may well be other health issues - as yet unsubstantiated.
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Janet Beale Of course now you jog my memory I remember the article well, it was very interesting and very brave of the writer/breeder to place those facts in print. It is all the more imperative that you supply the requested information regarding Shyla's supposed epilepsy but is not going to make a difference as we no longer have these lines in our dogs.
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Caroline Cece Grow up Janet Beale. Miracles might happen.
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Caroline Cece Yes it was very brave of Hilary to have written that. Also the conversation i had with her was very informative.
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Janet Beale I have been nothing but helpful to you Caroline - if you are so upset with me - Is it perhaps that you cannot PROVE with veterinary evidence that Shyla has epilepsy - that Chello has Hip Dysplasia.
I will not leave you alone until I have this definitive proof from you or you issue a public apology for the stress and intimidation and harassment of my owners and myself and the Astra name.
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Caroline Cece I can with Shyla but i won't as you no longer deserve information. As for Chello check with the Bva. As for helpful nothing but a hindrance more like. As for a public apology, i have nothing to apologise for. I speak nothing but the truth and what you can not handle.
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Janet Beale What truth that Chello has hip dysplasia ? Prove it about Shyla?
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Janet Beale I will believe it if you provide the Proof
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Caroline Cece What crap are you speaking about now. Black/white you are getting to know sweet sod all. Whats the point in proving proof when you do not do anything about it.
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Janet Beale If you make statements in public Caroline you need to back this information up with PROOF not accusations.
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Janet Beale Perhaps your issue is not that Shyla may or may not have Epilepsy. But that you are sore at me because of your own decision not to breed with Shyla because of the article you talked about and that someone else produced numerous fantastic working puppies from Shyla's mother after she was sold to a new home. People need proof before they take major decisions in life.
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Caroline Cece Don't be so so Ridiculous. Hilary advised me not to breed Shyla.
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Janet Beale You took her advice and now feel cheated ?
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Caroline Cece You really are something else Janet Beale
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Janet Beale I rest my case
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Caroline Cece If that satisfies your answer and it gets rid of you, lovely. Good bye
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The post was subsequently removed by the page owner.

I cannot and will not make your mind up for you that is for your alone to decide but I do trust that readers may learn from this post and remember ...............................

"Judge not least ye too be judged and be found wanting!"

Hi Janet

If you have read all the thread you will see posts from Chizzy. She has one dog by a known epilepsy producer(who was also a top winning Ob Ch & used several times at stud-two in one litter)& lost a young KC registered dog with epilepsy that was also ISDS registered, it parents being dual registered, however many generations away from real ISDS registered dogs. This last dog came from a breeder with known epilpesy in their bloodlines.

Just to be sure, everyone understands - I am NOT saying there is NO epilepsy in the Border collie - ISDS or Kennel Club.

There are 1000's of causes of epilepsy, and No breed or bloodline is exempt. It is very complex, it is not understood, and scaremongering makes it harder for people especially breeders whose entire livelihood revolves around their dogs, to submit information that will actually help solve the puzzle.

There is fantastic research going on these research bodies ensure compete anonymity of owners, breeders and bloodlines as they realise that the publishing of names BEFORE, during and after the research has been completed is actually detrimental to their study.

Caroline Cece knows this and surely should know that in order to submit USEFUL samples for research that the will help and the co-operation of the Breeder is absolutely essential.
Blaming and attacking Breeders in not the way, nor is it correct for "Breed Databases" or even owners and breeders, to print in the public domain, information of which they do not have in their possession documented written evidence.

I believe my Lawyer mentioned that these Breed Societies and databases should be in possession of a full and detailed written report which STATES categorically that the disease is hereditary, before placing this information into the public domain - if only to protect themselves from court action.

I am saying that accusations especially in public; without proof supplied to the BREEDER, is a direct cause of the stigma attached with epilepsy.

People like Caroline Cece make it very hard for owners, especially those who understand the laws, principles and averages of breeding.

Placing unproven information anywhere in the public domain without the breeders consent will fore-ever hinder the investigation of Epilepsy, and this is very sad as it is research into our pets and farm animals which leads the way to solving complex health issues in humans - in my view Caroline Cece and other scaremongers are cheating Human Society.

Just to be clear - I have emailed Mrs Cece last night with a link to my reply to her post. I await with baited breath for her reply.

Trouble is Janet these people blame the breeders for the epilepsy which is not correct. As you say the DNA link to epilepsy is still under investigation & until such time as it is found(if there is one of course & it may then only be for one cause of epilepsy)the support should be with the researchers & all breeders can do is not breed from known producers of possible inherited epilepsy.

There are several outside causes of epilepsy-canine meningitis for one & accidental head injury for another.

Roy Goutte to the best of his knowledge has never bred a dog that has developed epilepsy,but by the law of averages one day he may-this comes directly from Roy BTW(he bred 2 of my 6 dogs)

What isn't needed is these muck rakers who have no definative proof of what they spread.

This was so true when a puppy alleged by Derek Scrimgeour's Ben was diagnosed with severe CEA & subsequently developed epilepsy. The "rumour"spread around the obedience world like a pandemic, when DNA actually proved that Ben was not the sire, the damage was done & Ben's reputation was damaged.

I have an Astra Border Collie and he is a beautiful healthy dog, very intelligent and a lovely temperament.

We have always had rescue dogs in the past so we took whatever issues came with them and worked through them. I appreciate its different when you have paid alot of money for a specific dog to be able to do a specific job or activity eg.. the dog can't do herding/agility due to epilepsy...but sadly sometimes these things happen as in people.. would you return an adopted child who developed epilepsy or demand compensation from the adoption agency/social services etc?

It's kind of sad and a sign of the times that our beautiful companions are sold under same conditions as 'things', to be returned if faulty and unfair to blame the breeder when they have made sure as far as possible that they were breeding healthy pups. As with people it is possible for two healthy individuals to produce a disabled child with no previous history on either side. (eg .. 90% of deaf children have two hearing parents..I have two friends - a couple, both profoundly deaf from birth with 3 hearing children!..It happens ..with dogs and other animals too)

My dog JJ (Astra Jesse-Jay) is being trained to be my assistance dog. He can't actually take the exam until after his second birthday (he's not 1 yet!) but regardless of whether he passes the public training element he will always have a home here with me, whether it was just because he found the full public training part too stressful or he passed but later developed an injury/condition that meant he had to retire from official public duty earlier than intended (access to shops etc). I would not consider this Janets fault and would consider it absolutely ridiculous to claim 'you sold me this pup as an hearing/assistance dog and he didn't pass/went deaf/lame etc..I want my money back!'

There are no guarantee's in life for man or beast! It's very sad that your dogs developed Epilepsy but yet this didn't stop you returning to buy more Astra's since this thread was originally written?

You said you are a breeder (or was one).. how would you feel if someone had bought one of yours and it developed epilepsy? ..I'm sure you'd feel terrible even though there was nothing you could have done to prevent it..but then the person with the 'faulty' pup decides to mount an hate campaign to make sure no-one else buys from you!!.. but then continues to buy more of your dogs in the future??? anyone else confused yet?? :?

ANY dog from ANY breeder can potentially develop conditions or disabilities that cannot necessarily be prevented or predicted...as a breeder you must know this and as a prospective buyer if you chose to 'take the risk' to buy a dog from anyone then you have to accept all that comes with the dog..whether its an older rescue you took in or an 8 week old puppy.

Kati
Proud Owner of an Astra Sheepdog!

Astra Jesse-Jay

Hi everyone,

I have been viewing this and associated posts with great interest as a non member but felt I had to join and make a statement.

First of all a forum is not a place to make an accusation against anyone no mateer how large or small. It is made even worse when an accusation is not backed by any evidence whatsoever. And even if there were such evidence a forum is not the place, arena to do this.

Looking at the previous posts it would seem it is more of a personal attack from Caroline and should have been removed from moderators of this site. However we are where we are now and the seed has been planted. What I would suggest is that Caroline gives some evidence of her accusations against Janet for two reasons:

1. It will give Janet the chance to disproove the accusations or/and takeappropriate actions with her dogs.

2. Give Caroline some credibility as the way I am seeing this is just as a public slating for no reason.

Just common sense really

Colin

Absolutely agree one hundred per cent Kati. I really don't think anyone could add anything to what you say. It brings perspective to it all.

Nice one.

Colin

Kati, did you ever find out what was causing JJ's digestion problems and find a suitable food for him?

Hi

Yes, he had a tummy bug that was making him appear to be allergic to everything I tried.

He is currently on James Wellbeloved as he won their cutest puppy comp and a years worth free food!!!

I am also studying the raw diet for them both as I heard it can also help older dogs with arthritis, but need an extra freezer first to be able to manage that through winter as I need everything delivering to me and would probably get a month or two at a time to save on delivery costs.

So pleased to hear that JJ is now doing well!

That's exactly what it is and this person is still doing this only now via FB (this post was originally written in 2009).

I looked at alot of dogs before choosing JJ, as the dog needed to learn alot quickly and be of sound temperament. It's hard to tell from an 8 week old puppy how it will mature, so you have to look at the reputation of the breed.

The fact that people are willing to travel thousands of miles from countries such as Japan and US to get an Astra dog speaks more of their reputation than a select few getting together to bitch about someone and make immature comments on forums & social media sites...and to anyone considering an Astra pup I would say..don't let immature and inappropriate comments on the internet sway you...go and see the dogs yourself and make up your own mind.

Having quickly read through this thread (must say I am a bit confused) but am surprised it hasn't been removed altogether for some of the reasons above mentioned.

Public forums are not the place to make unsubstantiated accusations that could potentially damage someone or their livelihood. If someone has a genuine grievance or complaint they will have what they need in hand to pursue that complaint through the proper 'legal' channels.

I agree but the moderators didn't remove this and it was seen by people who had been considering an Astra pup and then backed out, even though it was an old thread...I think under the circumstances & to be fair, Janet should also be allowed to tell her side without admin removing it, so if in future this thread appears in a search the prospective buyers can see both sides.

Well yes I do see your point. Just a shame it wasn't removed as soon as the 'mud slinging' started. As it is sadly true that if you sling enough mud - some of it will stick - whether it is deserved or not.

As i have just come back from holiday and become aware of all this going on, hence no reply. I have no intentions of giving any proof to Miss Beale for reasons which she is well aware of. My vet knows what is what with Shyla. I personnally do not want anything to do with Miss Beale and have told her so. Long history between Miss Beale and myself that i would like to end. If Miss Beale chooses to copy and paste things between us, its fine with me as she has done it quite a few times before but sadly likes to copy and paste bits she wants and misses out others. At the end of the day i can sleep at night knowing what the truth is

I have been following these posts and admit that I am confused. Any breeder with any sort of knowledge should know that epilepsy cannot be proven as hereditary, any more than some human diseases can. There are genetic conditions in humans which are thought to be hereditary, but we know that there are exceptions to every rule. However, people who are aware they have genetic conditions which may be hereditary would be able to exercise choice as to whether or not to take the risk to have a family. Dogs can't do this, so it is up to the breeders to decide. I would think it was common sense to realise that PROOF should not be necessary for any sensible breeder to be unwilling to take a risk on breeding from dogs with epilepsy, cryptorchidism or any other potentially hereditary condition. In simple terms, breeders should not have carte blanche to breed as they wish from dogs with any potentially genetic disorder and hide behind the fact there is no PROOF it is hereditary. What I would like to know is this; if a breeder is informed about a pup he/she has sold which develops any sort of disease which MAY be hereditary, do they enter this information in a database somewhere? If not, why not? Surely this would be a common sense way to building up facts and figures for future owners and researchers?

Certain breeds are known to have a predisposition to certain genetic diseases/conditions. Some of these can be tested for in both proposed sire and dam before mating, whether those diseases/conditions have shown up in previous generations or not, but for some there is, as yet, no test. Border Collies are such a breed.

However, there is currently no test for canine epilepsy, but it is known that certain breeds are predisposed to carry the gene for epilepsy and pass it on. It might have occurred ten or more generations before and not known, but can still be carried in the genes and then a litter is born in which some of the pups develop epilepsy. But if it is known that there is epilepsy in the previous generations of either sire or dam, then neither should ever be used for breeding.

My epileptic dog is not a Border Collie, she is a mutt of unknown origin, as was her dam who was picked up off the streets, heavily pregnant. Nobody known what breeds she might have in her make up, but any breeder who knows that there is epilepsy in the background of their sire or dam yet continues to use them from breeding should, in my opinion, be named and shamed.

Can Epilepsy not have environmental causes too?

I know of an assistance dog who had to retire early. They had been left at a kennels whilst owner went on holiday and somehow was able to lick some paint contained lead or something in it. Her behaviour became erratic she started barking at people in the supermarket which obviously cannot be allowed in a dog working in public.

She was found to suffer from some type of complex seizures where she suddenly developed erratic behaviour so obviously she was unable to work in public anymore and had to be retired. She was a pedigree bred by the associations own breeders and all the other pups & parents were fine & no history.

I think you'd need to rule out that as a cause as doesn't the OP have more than one dog that is epileptic from different people?

Just as there are different "types" of epilepsy seizures, so there are different causes of it, from brain tumours, hypothyroidism and other illnesses/diseases, to environmental [exposure to various chemicals] and head trauma.

And there is genetic/inherited epilepsy, with certain breeds being more likely to carry the faulty gene which causes it, Border Collies being one such breed.

There is also what my dog has. Idiopathic Epilepsy, meaning epilepsy of no known origin or cause.

Well, yes that is my feeling exactly. I am aware there is no conclusive test for epilepsy genes, but breeders who have produced it in a litter should surely refrain from using either that sire or dam again? They should not be able to hide behind the notion that as there is no conclusive proof, they can carry on breeding from the same dogs.