Buying a Wolf Dog Cross - (split from Mahooli's standard thread) Controversial

See posts getting removed! Tazer: wow an intelligent post.... i wonder how many people read it and understood it? lol we should do some punnet squares work out what we would get?

I'm no expert in genetics, but I do find it interesting.

Those posts that were removed, were nothing sinister, just me and Liz and a few others saying how bad we are at singing and dancing lol.

Anyway back on topic.

A few people have said that the cwd is a working breed, so what jobs do you or indeed anyone else with a pure cwd or cross think they'd be good at. E.g sar dog/detection dog/hearing dog/guide dog/other assistance dog/police dog. I'm genuinely interested.

Under FCI grouping the saarloos and the csv fall under section 1: sheepdogs. The saarloos was originally created in 1930 but want recognised until 1981. It was suggested they would be ideal pets but needs a firm handler and not one that will give the dog a slap should it not conform! Uses are guide dogs and search and rescue. The csv was created in 1955 and recognised in 1994 by the fci. Used purely as a guard and defence dog by the czech government. The training required is shutzhund which does not only include bite work but high levels of obedience and agility. My csv cross is 2 he is a blood donor, works well with obedience and agility, an alert guard dog but doesnt hardly bark, goes ringcraft (show training), bikejorrs, cani crosses and runs on a rig with my other dogs, eskimo dogs and siberian huskys. i know a lady with a csv cross also and she does sar work and one of my csv's offspring has already started basic security work.

Thanks for the reply. I read that although the swh was used as a guide dog, it wouldn't be abled to now, dew to the increase in traffic combined with its sometimes overly shy nature. I therefore wondered if the cwd would not make a better candidate for a guide dog. As there is gsd in its history, and it seems from what you have said, that it is capable of duing the other tasks a gsd is used for, after all they do use a veriety of breeds from labs to poodles to aussie shepherds, and all kinds of crosses.

Yeah i reckon so but then any dog that does a particular job has to be well suited. i have a registered pat dog, they have to be 110% with everything. Everything i have done with him has made him the dog he is today. I would say that if you raise your dog well, do as much socialisation with it as possible so it has no fear but also bond with your dog so it trusts your judgement over its own then the battle is won, regardless of breed! The problem with that is some people just cannot read their dog or undersstand it and this is where the problem lies!

This is probably one of the rare times that I'll actually agree with you Racheal. As daft as this sounds, to understand a dog, you have to think like one and that's regardless of what breed it is. The body language always remains the same ;-)

The CWD would be totally unsuitable as a guide dog- too strong willed. These are high drive dogs. Some part CWD are used in police work but they are more like the Mallinois. They are good at air scenting. Overall pure CWD do not make a good working dog. Their original usage was as in independent deterent dog run freely between two fence lines. Cross bred they are probably more suited to working (for a living).

The Saarloos has no working ability. This is clearly stated in the FCI breed standard. Its shyness makes it useless and it would be dangerous as a guide dog. Those dogs used for guide dog work in the 1940s were about 25% wolf and were rigerously selected (the rest culled). They probably performed average for a guide dog but not enough to convince the Dutch kennel club in 1942 when Mr Saarloos applied for recognition of the breed. Since 1969 the breed has essentialy been re-developed. It is a companion animal only. I have seen one do agility but that is exceptional.

Where dogs are concerned i wouldnt think any of what i say could be disagreed on....people now thats a different story ;-) The csv is very much in the league of the GSD, BSD with its high level of intelligence and forward approach with people and situations. The saarloos is not suited to urban life so could very well live reasonably happ as a pet and i do think sar would also work but perhaps only in certain situations. I heard them described as a "lounge lizard" which i think is very apt. I didnt see any in the show ring at the big dog show in Belgium but did see the csv and was surprised to see even some of those were a little reserved. It was only after talking (trying to lol) to the owners who were from france, belgium, poland and slovakia that those that had worked their dogs had the more rounded dog. They are fantastic to see in the flesh (cesky slovak in the catalogue) and their movement is superb. I personally am drawn more to the csv but thats simply because i like the outgoing personality and a dog that can fit in with all the things i do, the saarloos is not for me but then could be for lots of other people. I know other breeds do not ask their puppy purchasers to become educated via some sort of training program but think this would be a very good idea.

There are quite a few 'reserved' CSVs, it is a fault and not acceptable in the breed standard - those darned wolf genes keep popping out...

Is it wolf genetics? is it the line breeding? is it the way the dogs are raised? Is it the way they are brought up by their owners? Is it a combination of all the above? perhaps one day we will know all the answers to those questions!

I'm sure a combination of factors can suppress or enhance these characteristics. I have seen shy and outgoing pups in the same litter. Some have become extremely shy as they grew, while their litter mates were not even though they grew up together. Those breeding wolfdogs for decades seem to think it is genetic.

There is a genetic study underway that is looking for that 'shy' gene; they believe it exists, who am I to argue.

My male (RIP) was very different to two of his sisters, much of it was their different characters, I am sure, rather than environmental influences.

This interesting - the nature v nurture thing.

I find it fascinating (so does my vet) that you can have a litter of pups - sames genes, same upbringing - but at 8 weeks of age showing very different temperaments and personalities.

They then go to different homes and under different upbringing these characteristics can be enhanced or suppressed.

If the 'shyness' is gene related then it should be possible to breed it out, by not breeding from shy stock, but then how do you know for sure that is nature and not nurture? You don't - not unless they do find a gene and stock is DNA tested. Interesting.

The thing is they are not the same genes unless they are identical twins- yes they inherit 50% from each parent- but this is a random 50%, therefore the pups do not have identical genes. If shyness is inherited it stands to reason that it would be possible for some to inherit the shyness gene and some not. I have seen littermates much, much older than 8 weeks (many months or years) that have different degrees of shyness.

I wonder if breeding from the shy wolf: that shyness is such a terrible thing...

Well, from a personal point of view - I would prefer a little reserve or shyness to an ott outgoing in your face dog any day.

very true wdo ;-)

liz & kiesha .... what by not telling the truth? how would that help them flourish?

The description of both breeds describe one of my ni's totally!!! Saying that she is a wonderful dog that I wouldn't change at all

I doubt if it would.

Wasn't expecting this thread to get resurrected.

No - me neither...but very interesting to look back on. I must say...if anything - my views have become stronger based on what I have learnt in the last year and maybe more specifically the last 3 weeks!!