Northern Inuit and Ute Discussions

or in the best interest of the dogs!

sorry don't know how to quote

in answer to liz's question about who wrote the ute standard, i believe it was a group of people who started in the original breeding of these dogs, one of whom is no longer involved with the breed. I'm not 100% on that though...sorry to drop you in it lucky star but maybe you know? i'm a bit hazy on that front i wasn't around way back when


just a quick edit to say..i can see this going the wrong way, we are not on here to discuss how the NIS is doing regards to owners dogs etc..we are having a constructive thread about the differences/similarities between NI's and Ute's. I've had my say so i'm off before this develops into personal attacks again, which was what i was hoping this thread would avoid as it was doing so well

well it started off well, missed the off topic posts so don't know what has been removed.

What I was trying to ask is if the NI and Ute are both supposed to look like a wolf, what are the differences between the two types/breeds. I think the breed standards should be based on a wolf, and the clubs need to decide which type of wolf they are aiming for. If the aim of NI is not to look like a wolf a clear breed standard of what is is should be written, as unless it has changed again the two NI clubs have two different standards.

Sorry taking so long to get back to you Dawn, just remembered my question in this thread.
The first two are a cross of many types of dog and the third is full NI. I'm not offended at all and agree with your observations.

HI just catching up with all these fascinating threads, heres a link you may be interested in:

http://www.britishutonagan.com/breedstandard.htm

The British Utonagan Breed Standard written Feb 2008 by a few Utonagan breeders, and also input accepted from some very veterened KC judges.

This was based on the physiology of a Timber wolf (excuse my spelling Im at work with 2 Borders yapping at me, hard to concentrate) I think the "rough" coat you mean June is in GSD terms Plush coat, not too long but not smooth and with a undercoat.

Also The BUA started out to completely start again re records, health testing and new blood input from healthy new lines, we WILL be going for KC probably in the first instance 5-10years time all depending n how long it will be before we can clear out the "bad genes" and bring in enough new lines (we are intending at least 25 lines to be established) It has been and will be very hard work but all our breeders and owners are very happy working alongside each other for the good of the whole breed and not like some of our forefathers just out for ourselves, this in itself has helped us come along in leaps and bounds already. We are having great feedback and some pedigree owners are becoming more interesting in helping input some new lines as they can see where we are going and why.

We are having another show this Sunday 31st at Catrine green anyone close enough is more than welcom to come and see all the dogs strutting their stuff, and any questions you have will be answered by the owners in the flesh

Hi alady, welcome to Dogsey.

The bit in bold - where will you source these "healthy new lines"? I presume you don't mean from current Ute lines?

You assume absolutely rightly hhaaha

We are going to be going towards GSD and maybe GSDx, working lines, and sables are the main concern at the moment, we have just started sourcing them with the help f some GSD breeders. For our AGM I did a lot of research into the older style GSDs (before they looked crippled) and was amazed to find that some of the original GSDs hobo for example where the image of our Utes, I have a link somewhere will try and find it, I myself have been looking for a silver sable, but am in no hurry as these dogs will be in fact founders so the more time and research now the better for the future..

We are working with the AHT and some specialists in order to gain genetic pedigrees and therefore should be able to pin point the Utes that are not carrying anything and put them to selected new dogs, and be able to tell from litter screens, and health info collected on the progeny, parents etc. We are always collecting health info on the dogs ancestors but as you know that is an extremely difficult task where some people are concerned. As I said it wont be an easy task, but the dogs are worth it and we hope that eventually we will see the wood by the trees,.

Thanks for the welcome

Hi Alady
There will obviously be excess pups from your plan, what will you sell them as (crossbreeds / mongrels?) and for how much?

The dog Hobo is from Chuck Eisenmann's kennel in U.S.A. There is no other German shepherd that has the same look. This would lead one to believe they are crosses.

Ref 'Hobo' aka London and pals. Here is a thread about that 'type' of GSD. Ref being crosses, it would seem that that is not the case:

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=105954&highlight=hobo

Wishing you every success xxxxxxx

The 'funny' looking NI is a beautiful dog - I have met him. It is probably not the best photo of him, but he is a lovely dog.

Could you direct me to the kennel of someone else who breeds them?

I wish I could , by all accounts they were fabulous dogs and not just in the looks department.

I agree WW but given that nobody else breeds them is what led me to think they are most likely crosses.

Joedeeuk knew a kennel that used to breed them in the UK in the 40s

That's quite some time ago

Yes, I know such a shame:-( I would love to see GSDs look like that still xxxxxxx

Don't get me wrong there are some fab GSDs out there but I'd love these ones, even more ........................xxxxxxx

An excert for you to see that there was more than one and they were the original German Shepherds, I have a link I will look it out for you its very interesting.

"9) Memphis, Tennessee -- Memphis Press Scimitar
It was an amazing experience meeting Chuck Eisenmann and his four huge German Shepherds, London, Thorn, Litlon, and Toro in their room at the Holiday Inn. I’ve been around dogs -- and people -- all my life, but never came up against a combination like Chuck and his dogs before.


Credits: All pictures of the Hobo dogs are reprinted from Stop! Sit! and Think! and The Better Dog: The Educated Dog by Charles P. Eisenmann.

All his dogs had this mask now associated with Utes and Inuit, these dogs were founder German Shepherds the mask sadly was bred out as was a lot of the other good qualities, You wont find GSDs with this marking any more (well I havent found them yet) But my point was that if you look at the founder Shepherds and some working lines you will see a lot of similarity with some of our Utes. You will however find silver sable GSDs for example:

Which is what we at BUA are looking at, the combination of these types and our dogs should hopefully improve our bloodlines, give better tail set and trainability, better ears, better sloping movement, and also the look of our dogs are not far from the GSDs ancestors, so really not a big bridge to cross.

As for your question on surpluss puppies, what a crude manner to put it... no there will not be excess puppies, this isnt the 60s, all pups will be sold as pet only, with breeding endorsements and contracts, they will be bred for health, trainability, versatility, family pet qualities, and to look as much like a wolf as can with no content. We are already working hard to find their forte and happily as you may already have read these dogs are extremely clever and can do lots of activities that the modern day owner likes to enjoy. Adding GSD can only improve on their ability to work. They will be getting promoted as PAT dogs as soon as we can, they have started obedience, agility, rigging. There are a multitude of reasons to have as you put "surpluss" as just a pet to be enjoyed and loved. Not everyone is interested in breeding, infact it is a lot of responsibility to take on, especially in a new breed.

As for money, well I always think that a rude question and one I personally never ask. Our Utes are sold at £750, and we have decided as a Committee that there is no reason why the first cross new lines should be any different. All the dogs are thoroughly health screened, (more so than a lot of breeds) all DNA tested, all microchipped, etc etc same as any other breed. They also will all be moving forward logged as founder dogs in a new breed and will therefore be creditied with the same recognition as any dog in the gene pool when KC is eventually applied for.

All this information is told to any prospective pup owner all on the papers and registrations and they are made fully aware of our future plans regarding the whole breed. We have found that the more open about what we are trying to acheive the more we are involving our pup owners, they are enthusiastic and quite willing to get on board, whereas there are some owners who just researched the dogs and our breeders and wanted a wolfalike for a loved pet with no interest other than that.

Phew....hope that answers your questions..

Thanks for your well wishes