A quick NI-BI question

I understand that is how TIDA are planning to bring new genes into the NI breed, using the * system. I would have no problem if Raven is a cross, as long as it was all documented and his parents had relevant health tests. IMO new unrelated bloodlines are needed and I would be happy if in fact Raven is a cross.

Wouldn't it be easier to DNA the sire and dam of Raven and prove they are the parents, than to DNA loads of other dogs to prove they are not. It's getting a bit like Jeremy Kyle. The DNA tests would have to be done totally above board, by someone independent, making sure that samples were taken from the correct dogs.

Good post.

Obviously this thread is not about Raven and has nothing to do with him, but has drifted somehow onto him. So, it has raised in my head a couple of questions. Rather than jump to conclusions, I am asking on here: A certain person has posted on this thread, suggesting that Raven's origins are dubious, if this is how she genuinely feels why on earth did said person get a puppy from Raven? Then proceed to breed from this bitch puppy, had a litter, kept one of those pups (bitch) to breed from, and now has a litter of pups from the bitch. Surely if one had doubts about a dogs bloodlines, it would be responsible not to breed from said dog/s.

As dawn has already pointed out... the litter from said bitch are cross breeds.. not NI`s.. so what the hell does it matter that his origins are dubious... come to that every NIs origins are dubious, that`s why i tell people these days they are gsd, husky crosses... it`s almost an embarrassment to have to tell people they are Northern Inuits.

Hi WW
It was actually me who raised the question of Raven's pedigree. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out things just dont add up with this dog. I dont think he looks very NI more like Husky and i also noticed many of the NI litters born lately have had black and white pups who are also very husky looking.
I have no objection to Raven being a cross. I personally think outcrossing is a good idea for the NI type of dog at this time. If he is a cross then they could just say so, its looking more and more likely. Ive yet to see any NI members not in support of JK's decisions so doubt it would throw a spanner in the works to say she's outcrossing.
Raven's a lovely looking dog and i can see why Sandra would want a pup from him or breed from his line's, she's made it quite clear she's breeding crosses so him not being a full NI is hardly likely to put her off.

I am sure the owner of the litter of 'cross breeds' as you put it can speak for herself. Funny, they aren't being advertised using the term 'cross breed' I am sure the name 'Northern Inuit' is in there as the litters Dam. Infact, go on the said website, the dam is advertised as a 'Northern Inuit' so yes, it does matter.

Ref your NIDs, ref the fact that you haven't bothered to socialize them, it is probably a good idea that you tell people they are crossess, wouldn't want people thinking they are representative of the breed now would we, or are you assuming they are from bad breeding and that is why they have 'issues' ? Interesting.............

Hello Liz

SC has dogs she is calling NIDs that are closely related to Raven. If she feels his origins are suspect and he cannot be confirmed as a NID then she shouldn't be calling her dogs that result from him NIDs. It is as simple as that.

Hi WW
When they are registered as NID she has little choice.
Anyway i dont want to get into what Sandra does or does not do. I am interested in Raven tho, do you think he's full NI?

No I don't know for sure - but by the dogs I get to hear about he has been used often enough to make a big impression on the breed. Only the NIS registrations will know how often he's been used.

I don't know who has put that idea in your head - I have never made any connection between Raven and Taz.

Where did Mahlek Drifter come into it?

I have to go out in a bit - but when I come back I will post a copy of the pedigree that was given for Raven at the time he appeared. Obviously if you have Drifter on his pedigree then there have been some 'adjustments'.

When I said that Raven's sire wasn't related to ANY other NI - its not the same as saying someone has an NI with no dogs in common with someone elses. It would still have dogs in common with somes's dog. But for a dog to have NOTHING in common with any other does raise questions.

That is the system that Jeff Sampson suggested to me two years ago.

Its a good system and has worked to improve many breeds - its open and above board and everyone knows exactly what is going on.

However, with the NI - it will never be recognised since records can't be produced that go back to the original first crosses. Every breed needs to be able to do that.

But, I agree - the star system is good and that is what I put to TIDA two years ago and I believe they are going to be doing.

Thank you everyone.

If you look at my website you can see that I couldn't make it any clearer what I am breeding. My contracts even have a part where the new owner signs to say that they are fully aware of what the parents are and what they are getting. It states very clearly that they are hybrids and that in this instance the meaning of the word is NOT as stated on wikipaedia (sp) but as the general dictionary definition as being a cross. Its all there on my website - go and check.

I have no problem with crossbreeding - in fact it should have been done for the good of the breed much earlier. I don't have a problem with Raven - as has been said by someone else, he is a nice dog and throws lovely looking pups. What I do have a problem with is not knowing whats behind him. Yes I had to accept that he is an NI because thats what his owner said he was (bearing in mind we hadn't finished compiling the database at that time and couldn't check anyway) and that is what is on the NIS registration certificate that I have for the bitch I bought with Raven as the sire. In any case it wouldn't matter, providing we knew exactly who or what his parents were.

Incidentally, the ONLY pedigrees that come out with a reasonable level of coefficiency of inbreeding are the ones with Raven in.

This thread does seem to have changed course and I only came in to answer one very simple question that all of you who seem to have a lot to say now, didn't answer in the first place. If you knew so much - why didn't you answer then?

yes where has everyone gone, I fed the chook, took the dogs out, got soaked it's an absolutely foul day here, think I will stay in for the rest of the day

Why does someone not just ASK Raven who his family is

I do find all this discussion on the imortance of Raven being an NI or not quite amusing. From memory so many people on here have been crying out that there should be new blood in the NI. Now here we have a dog that has no NI background, but may well be healthy, and certainly is a good looker, yet people are now complaining that he isn't a registered NI. Does it really matter? As the breed is being develoed, if someone wishes to use a previously non-registered NI to breed from so they can introduce new blookd, what's the problem?

To answer Jem's OP. My BI was registered as one at birth, so he's never been an NI. His sire is also registered as BI, but I think he may originally have been registered an NI. His dam was similar.

Thanks for answering.

Hi Efes
Nice to see you. Personally i believe outcrossing is good and have no problems from that angle. The Raven mystery has come up as he IS a registered NI and a stud dog and his pedigree is in question. It matters as the NIS insist all dogs have been bred pure NI to NI for many years so if Raven's not pure NI then NIS are lying. ;-)

You'll get no argument from me about using "new blood" but a bit and truth and honesty about it wouldnt go amiss eh?

Nice to see you too

And you're expressing surprise that they are lying? I thought you guys didn't believe a word they said anyway? Why would it surprise you?

I am probably wrong, but I thought they accepted any new dogs, as long as they fit the standard? I could probably register Kopek as an NI if I wanted to, don't see the point personally.

Take care

Oh no lol i would not be surprised to find out they are lying, i'd just like it clarified (if that's possible) that they are outcrossing.
Interesting that you heard they accepted any dog that fits the standard, where did you hear that?