Hip Dysplasia (in Beagles) - A KC Cover Up or Not? Controversial

Staffordshire bull terrier (48 : 6-47 : 13),
King Charles spaniel (266 : 0-92 : 16),
Border terrier (10 : 6-33 : 14),
Bulldog (20 : 10-96 : 45),
Bull terrier (12 : 0 - 12 : 7),
Pug (23 : 8-53 : 21).

At least in the Bull terrier & KCS they are some with perfect hips.

Not with the worst score being 92 in KCS there isn't!!!

It is actually the breed clubs responsibility to insist on health tests being done and if they do and advise the KC then the KC can take matters further.

Just look at CKCS Clubs at the moment and their reluctance to health test.

No breed or crossbreed is clear of health problems just as the rest of the living beings here aren't. My breed does have their hips, eyes tested.

So it would seem that there are differing views over who is responsible for deciding which health tests are necessary for a given breed. Some of you think the BVA whilst others think the breed clubs. But almost all of you seem to be agreed that whoever is responsible is seriously screwing up in the case of very large numbers of popular breeds!!

The thing that interests me are the claims that some of you are making that HD should be screened for by ALL breeders of all breeds - regardless of whether members of the breed are symptomatic.

Lets look at the Border Terrier as an example (simply because amongst the popular breeds that's the worst in terms of number of dogs tested - those with less than 10 dogs screened don't have published figures). Only 10 Border Terriers have ever been hip scored.

Does this mean that there is no such thing as a good Border Terrier breeder? Many of you define a good breeder as someone that ALWAYS breeds from health screened breeding stock. But if only 10 dogs in a breed have EVER been screened how many are likely to be available for breeding right now? And assuming that it's the whole 10 (unlikely I would have thought) that means that 'good breeders' have just a couple of dogs to choose from - they can't use the ones with high scores!! A gene pool that small is hardly a recipe for healthy breeding programs.

So it would seem to me that if you people are right (and I reiterate, I accept that you may well be very wrong) then what possible excuse is there for NOT having mandatory health screening of all breeding stock of all breeds? If the KC don't want to assume the role (or if breed clubs won't accept their authority) then another group is desperately needed that will do the job. I'm sure very many pet owners would welcome such an organization with open arms. I know that if I was looking for a new puppy I'd feel a lot happier about getting one from a breeder that was following the advice of impartial vets and genetics experts who placed the dog's health above all else. In time, breeders would be forced to join such an organisation as those that didn't would find it impossible to get buyers for their pups.

Why only hips and eyes? (Don't read that as an accusation - I'm just curious as to how breed clubs decide what's necessary and what isn't).

You missunderstand. My point was that the KC accredited breeder scheme states that for many breeds hip scoring is neither recommended or required. Earlier in the thread the consensus seemed to be that the BVA make the recommendations as to which breeds should be screened.

So to clarify my point let me put it this way....

If someone came to you and said that the KC, Breed Club, BVA, their own breeder and their own vet all told them one thing, but they chose to ignore all that advise and instead listen to strangers on a discussion forum who didn't even present any research or statistics what would you think? That they deserved all they got - right? You'd probably think they weren't fit to own a dog.

**IF** the people claiming that all breeds should be screened are correct, then someone needs to make sure that people are fully aware that the advice given out by the KC and breed clubs is bogus. It's beginning to sound from what many of you are saying that most breeders that comply with their breed club and the KC accredited breeder schemes are on about a par with puppy farmers!

***AND I REITERATE - I'm basing this upon what you guys are telling me. I personally have not found anything that leads me to believe that the breeders, vets, bva, kc etc are wrong over this. But I saw the Pedigree Pets Exposed program so I know that shocking things HAVE happened with some breeds....so it is of course possible that they are all the same.

Incidently, the pages on breeds on dogsy don't mention HD as a problem with these breeds:

The Beagle:
http://www.dogsey.com/beagle.htm

The Border Terrier (described as a healthy breed - yet no testing is done. How do they know? **Not necessarily my line of reasoning, but that's what you guys seem to be saying?**)
http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=13532

Bulldog
http://www.dogsey.com/bulldog.htm

Staffordshire Bull Terrier (Mentions that people should only by pups bred from tested parents, but states that only eye conditions need testing for).
http://www.dogsey.com/dog-articles.php?t=12954

Does anyone know where the info for the dog breed pages on Dogsey came from? If you guys are right isn't a good place to start the breed info pages on Dogsy????

I think the problem is, untill more dogs are scored then its hard to get an over all view of how healthy/unhealthy the hips in these breeds are.

Wrong again Scarter, lots of breeders hip score Borders now! There is NO test for CECS which incidently is not a breed thing, its a caniine disease its just that Border breeders have got up and not ignored a problem that may become a problem if not addressed! Shame "other" breeds arent the same eh?!!

Goodness me! The BVA and KC are starting to sound more and more incompetent by the minute!!!

You say that lots of Border Terrier breeders hip score. Yet if you go to the KC website or the BVA website and follow the links to the document entitled

"BRITISH VETERINARY ASSOCIATION/KENNEL CLUB HIP DYSPLASIA SCHEME – Breed Mean Scores at 01/11/2008"

And according to that document, at the 1/11/2008 (so just 6 months ago) only 10 border terriers had been hip scored.

But hey, I'm quite prepared to believe that the figures of 10 Border Terriers screened and 45 Beagles is wrong! Perhaps hoards of Border Terrier and Beagle breeders have seen the light in the last 6 months and started screening all their breeding stock

Or maybe we're all reading the figures wrong!

Here's a little extract from a random Border Terrier breeder's website:

Now it's always important to stress that I know nothing about this particular breeder - they could be good, they could be bad. But what I found interesting is that she talks of a breed club health seminar that (as with the Beagle breed club) talks of an awareness of health problems in the breed, but the conclusion drawn by the breed club is that whilst care is necessary screening isn't simply because these problems aren't prevalent in the breed.

So a VERY similar attitude to that of Beagle breeders and Beagle breed club. Sure, at a point in time 6 months ago 45 beagles had been scored as opposed to just 10 Border Terriers. But even when you take account of the fact that there are significantly more Border Terriers in the country than Beagles both figures are extremely low.

But like I said, I'm interested in all opinions - no matter how far fetched. And sure, the figures published by the BVA and KC could be wrong. It's possible. Anything is

But from what I read on websites of various breeds I can't help but get the impression that the breeders genuinely believe that hip scoring (of breeds such as Beagle, Border Terrier) isn't beneficial. I wish some of them would post to explain why. Are they all less informed than your typical 'internet warrior' or is the difference in opinion because they are better informed ????

As I said my dear lots of breeders are hip scoring now.

You really have huge issues with the KC, I only hope your breeders dont find out how you slag them off, if I were them I wouldnt of sold you a dog for fear of the crap you spout!! Not including over exercising a baby etc....

Relax, I understand. You aren't saying the KC have got their figures wrong. The KC ARE publishing accurate information but it's just 6 months out of date. We can only make judgments based upon the state of play 6 months ago when the figures were last published.

6 months ago Beagle Breeders were, statistically, several times more responsible than Border Terrier breeders (in your view as you believe that the breeders that screen are most responsible). We simply don't know who's doing the most screening in the past 6 months.

But at this moment in time neither breed club has seen fit to recommend that their members screen. I'm still very interested to learn why. Is Borderdawn (and many others that have expressed similar views on this thread) correct when she says that responsible breeders always screen for HD? If so, then surely responsible breed clubs should recommend it? And if it really is as black and white as people make out that ALL breeders should screen all breeding stock for HD then surely the BVA and KC should also recommend (if not require) it?

I really would love to hear from some breeders that don't screen. I expect a lot of people are being frightened by posters on this thread. People that have followed all the KC/Breed club advise and taken care to select a good breeder that carries out all recommended tests. And now people are telling them that they got their pups from bad breeders and it's very possible that they have genetic problems that they haven't been made aware are prevalent in their chosen breed. If breeders care about pet owners opinion of the KC and breed clubs then they should speak up and reassure pet owners that following the KC and breed club advise when purchasing a pet is the right thing to do if you want the best chance of a healthy animal. (Assuming that that is in fact the case).

If you look at the KC/BVA figures the vast majority of breeds are rarely screened - for anything! The breed clubs don't think it's necessary and the BVA haven't advised that they do.

Is that the time already?

Scarter, if you stop trying to twist things & catch people out you might get some answers.

What is the point if you have already made your mind up in any of us saying anything else?

Has anything that has been said on here stopped you over exercising your puppy? Because if it hasent then its all just irrelevent

At the end of the day WE buy the dogs we bring them up, the ethics stop with us. If we didnt buy from breeders that didnt health test then they would staRT to!!!!

We dont know everything, in dogs & in life we live & learn, its a pity the dogs suffer because of our lessons. If you can learn from someone elses lesson then thats easier for you dog. Some people always have to touch the fire to learn.

This is my last post on this thread unless it stops going around in silly circles & is just not a vehicle for you to prove how clever you are & how you can catch people out.

End of the day: no known beagles have a perfect hip score, How on earth can that be ethical??????????????????????????????????????????????????????