Hip Dysplasia (in Beagles) - A KC Cover Up or Not? Controversial

I think people are getting confused between a dog that is clinically dysplastic - ie. is lame due to badly fitting ball/socket joints - and a dog that scores highly when those hips are x-rayed.

When a dog is x-rayed several various points are accurately measured and given scores, these are then added up to give the total for that particular dog. I think it's important to remember that the scheme was originally drawn up for GSDs and since their construction and size is very different from that of eg. a Beagle, the hip score of the latter may not be an acurate representation of the health status of the individual. In general, with larger dogs the hip score does seem to equate fairly accurately to the soundness, or otherwise of the dog. In small dogs this simply isn't the case. For example, around ten years or so ago the breeders of Parson Russells in Sweden got very despondent because they were x-raying hips - on the Swedish principle of 'every health test must be done' - and getting relatively high scores every time. They started quizzing UK breeders about hip scores here - but none had been scored. When asked about the actual health of the Swedish dogs, it turned out that the dogs that scored so highly were without exception good-moving dogs (in fact had been scored as they were regarded as ideal breeding material because of their health, type and soundness) and none had ever shown any sign of lameness.

It may simply be that yes, many small dogs do have less than perfect hips and yes, breeders should give consideration to improvement but, because the hips of small dogs do not have to carry much weight, it is simply not a problem in practical terms.

The BVA not the KC suggest and advise which breeds need to be added to the list recommended for Screening based on the clinical data from vets all over the country. All the BVA/KC health screening lists are started this way ie Vets seeing more animals of a specific breed presenting with x problem.

Hip scoring uses WHIPPET hips as their base line ergo any dog that scors 0.0 has the same ball and socket fittings as a whippet. I would like to say that some vets don't actually send in the x-rays advising the owner their dogs are dysplastic no point getting that scored! Personally I'd be livid with a vet telling me that I'd insist on them going for scoring how else do you get an accurate mean score for the breeds?

I don't think they are, there are many factors involved in HD. Genetics are only one part, environment and upbringing are another. A dog with poor hips can still lead an active life and not show any clinical signs if they have good muscle tone etc, however if bred from they are also far more likely to pass the poor hips on to their offspring who may then not lead they same lifestyle and could show clinical signs of HD.

Even when breeding from parents with good scores you can not guarantee a dysplasic pup will be not born, however this risk is reduced if you breed from dogs with good hips and whose ancestors/siblings/close relatives also have good hips.

This certainly fits with everything that I've been told by breeders and vets.

Shame the breeders you chose to speak to didn't tell you that you increase the risk of your dog having bad hips by over exercising when they are babies!!!!

Although only 45 Beagles have been scored, they have a BMS of 23 which is not a low score (the range is between 10 and 71).

This is terrible, so this breed has never ever scored 0-0 hips. Defintally need hip scoring before breeding!!!! This breed suffers from HD!

At face value I'd agree that this seems to be the natural course of action. Why not test all breeds? Even if they're all zero there's no guarantee that it'll stay that way. The only way to be sure is by testing.

But....

Others on the thread have said:

If it was as simple and obvious as it seems then why do the BVA *require* screening of breeds that have much lower scores than Beagles yet they don't even *recommend* it for Beagles?

I totally appreciate the argument that if it was the breeders or even the KC that decided then they could just be covering up a problem.

But it's supposedly independent vets that decide. Isn't it?

Now the big danger of barging in and changing breeding programs based upon test results that are only relevant to large breed dogs (as someone suggested might be the case) is that you end up creating more health problems than you solve. Maybe this explains the decision of the BVA? Are there any other possible explanations for their seemingly illogical decision?

The proof of the pudding is in the scores,no matter what the opinions are, there has not been one beagle scored with a perfect score, that is terrible!!!! Have any in your dogs pedigrees been scored? are you going to have yours scored?
Having got a collie with HD , a total score of 42, & seeing him suffer at times, its no fun breeding dogs with bad hips

Coincidentally, there was an article on this in the latest issue of "Full Cry" - the magazine for Beagle welfare. It was written by the vet who is the adviser to the KC for Beagles.

She claims that the only reason that any conditions are mentioned in relation to Beagles is because the Kennel Club asked all breed clubs to discuss their health and name the three most important health conditions relating to their breed in December of 2008. For Beagles they used the most often reported conditions in the breed - Epilepsy, SRM and HD. There were very few cases of these conditions reported - but because Beagles are healthy these were the conditions they had to focus on as there are NO health problems that are common in the breed. As I said, I only every tracked down 1 case of HD in the breed (in this country) - and I did try pretty hard!! The condition is common in other countries (US for example) but breeders are apparently well aware of this and are extremely careful when importing breeding stock.

The magazine is published by Beagle Welfare if you want to find out more.

If beagles arent scored in this country then you arent going to know what has good hips or bad hips!!!! if there truely was no problem then the lowest recored score would be perfect hips. ie 0-0.

Are you going to get yours scored?

It sounds as if you're more wrapped up in test results than reality. In large breed dogs the experts say that there is a definite link between high hip scores and HD symptoms. They say this is not the case in small breeds like Beagles. It seems you are desperate for ALL breeds to be tarred with the same brush, but the experts are (sensibly in my opinion) looking at each breed individually and doing what is best for that breed. But be honest - do you think anyone would give a rat's a*se about hip scores if all breeds were as symptom free as the beagle? We wouldn't even have heard of HD and hip scoring wouldn't have been invented! The situation is being reviewed by experts and the BVA are looking at the studies of HD in large breeds to see if there's anything they can learn for small breeds. But until they think there is evidence to suggest that hip scoring is beneficial I very much doubt that pet owners will be the slightest bit interested.

Nothing on god's green earth would persuade me to put my dogs under general anesthetic for a test that the experts (the BVA) say isn't necessary or even recommended. That would be cruel. Dogs die under GA you know! Fair enough taking that risk in a breed where so many animals suffer. But I don't believe in unnecessary health tests for healthy animals - especially when many experts tell us that the test results aren't very meaningful for the breed.

What grounds do you have for disagreeing with the BVA - do you have access to studies that they aren't aware of? Or do you suspect corruption? a conspiracy? a cover up? ....something along those lines?

I live with HD,& its no laughing matter. only thinking of your dogs & the breed in general.

Just brush it aside & keep over exercising your pup.

If you knew anything about Scoring you would know you CAN get it done unde Sedation as opposed to GA.

Head in the sand springs to mind.

Theres no conspiracy with the KC or BVA, ????????????????????????????????????????? what are you going on about????

Facts are facts there has NEVER been a beagle scored that has recored PERFECT hips, that is alone imo ,reason for all breeders to score until the true state of HD in the breed is found out.

Btw if you are going to compete with dogs it is a good idea to get their health checked out first, Good "dogkeeping" imo.

As Dawn pointed out it would seem the scores are becoming higher. If HD in beagles is worsening then it is only a matter of time until they begin to be affected physically. Surely the sensible thing to do would be to begin scoring all of the breeding stock now, before any dogs have to suffer from it?

DITO, my lot have been done under sedation, its no big deal really, just a big vet bill lol

if I were going to do cani-x or beagle racing with a dog I would have it scored,

Scarter, come spend a few weeks in boarding kennels, see how healthy Beagles are, as I have said to you, I board several with severe health problems. You live in cuckoo land and sadly it seems a lot of the Beagle folk you frequent choose also to ignore, you have owned dogs for what 1yr? Id start listening to those who have owned them a bit longer if I were you, and at that, those that DO hip score as these are the ones that SEE the need and genuinely care for the breed.

A Cavalier comes to agility at my club, she has severe HD, she is only able to do agility due to treatment and hydrotherapy building her up enough over a long period of time and her strictly regulated agility is part of the process under her vet, specialists, and hydro people who are fully in the loop and support her doing it to increase muscle tone to keep her mobile.
Last I heard a Cav is a very small breed...

Then I trust you wont be breeding if you are not prepared to do what is clearly a very necessary test...
Bitches die during whelping you know, and pups die during the birth process you know, so presumably you won`t want to play a part in such an unnecessary risk...
Incidentally, hip score plates can be done under mild sedation instead of GA you know...

Absolutely - I could never put my beloved pets' lives at risk in that way. They are both neutered - the bitch was neutered before her first season thus giving her the best possible protection from mamory cancer, phantom pregnancies, pyometra and of course accidental pregnancy. Which is as you say a huge health risk for dogs. But I think you're being a bit nasty by implying that those that DO breed don't care about their dogs.

Yet the FACT remains that according to the BVA, the KC, the breed clubs and the breeders of my dogs and my vet this is not a necessary or even recommended test for Beagles that are used for breeding. So it would be crazy for pet owners to inflict this test on their pets. My vet assures me that there is nothing to be gained as regardless of the outcome of such a test in the case of a beagle her advice would be the same :

1. Keep them very lean
2. Keep them very fit
3. Give them a wide variety of different types of exercise including swimming
4. Let the dogs do as much as they want to do

I'm sure you guys *think* you know better than the BVA, breed experts, vets, KC....and maybe you do. But so far you haven't presented any evidence to lead Beagle owners (or potential beagle owners) that the BVA, breed experts, vets, KC etc are wrong and you are right.

Maybe if you're really, really certain that you are right and that it's a big cover up on the part of breeders, breed clubs, BVA, KC and vets, then a good idea might be to approach the lady that made the recent documentary about pedigree dogs. Maybe she can uncover the hard facts that you guys are unable to present? The facts that prove that the KC, BVA, vets, Breed Clubs and breeders are wrong in their actions and in the advice they are giving to Beagle pet owners regarding HD (and the health of the breed in general). You would be doing a huge public service. A side benefit to this would be that if you are wrong (god forbid) you'll find out and stop trying to give people incorrect advice - advice that could seriously damage the health of their pets if they took it. The biggest problem with Beagles is a tendency toward obesity - according to my vet, the vast majority of them need MORE exercise...not less!

In my breed the KC say that eye testing is a requirement under the ABS and DNA testing for prcd-PRA is recommended. However I, and other poodle breeders, think that the DNA test should be compulsory. Just because someone says it isn't necessary doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Testing for luxating patellas isn't even on the list yet I have mine all graded by my vet. Sadly there is no KC/BVA health scheme in place for this problem so the scores aren't recorded anywhere.
Becky

Welcome back Becky.

You are wasting your breath, Scarter has had dogs for a year now and she knows everything about them. If the KC dont say you MUST (she hates the KC by the way, but still bought 2 reg'd dogs) then its not applicable. Even though its one of the 3 most frequently reported health issue in beagles, its really not there at all!!