Cesar Milan with wolf dog Shadow General Chat

From what I could see there were several occasions where the lead was just slightly starting to slacken and as soon as the dog felt this it jumped up and snapped again.

Yes - but he had strung the dog up and it was expecting pain. I would not have strung the dog up had it gone in like that and (from experience) I do not believe the dog would have continued to go in had it not been strung up.

Whatever, you cannot however apply the natural dog pack behaviours to unrelated dogs living in human homes(don't forget the Alpha theories are based on the studies of captive packs that haven't evolved naturally & do not hunt or breed naturally)

Dogs know that humans are not dogs, the same way that they know cats aren't dogs, horses aren't dogs, sheep aren't dogs etc etc Different species of animals do not live in"packs"they do not function as a single entity & they may inhabit the same space, but live in a symbiotic relationship.

A true animal pack of social animals consist of related animals, even wild horse herds consist of a stallion, the mares & their offspring. Dogs living with humans(unless the dogs are related in the same way-1 breeding pair & all their offspring under breeding age)do not live at a biological "pack" They live in a literary pack & as I have already written because they are not related they way a natural pack are related wolf/wild dog pack behaviour cannot be applied to them

Yes I agree with this, after the first "attack" the dog stopped, but then found that he could not breath and was in pain so reacted to this in order to free himself from the pain, and for his survival. If CM had slackened the lead the at this point the dog would not have continued to "attack", the dog did stop several times, and gave CM a number of chances to slacken the lead safely, but he didn't pick up on this and continued to strangel the poor dog!!!!

The noose on an illusion collar does not loosen, it has a stop that is used to keep it tight around the dogs throat to keep the pressure applied, what you see"slackening"off is the part between the stop & the hand & it is a minor "slackening"& the dog isn't able to put all 4 feet on the ground. I've seen one of these collars"in the flesh"so to speak & the stop is exactly that it is pushed up the lead until the noose cannot be tightened any further & "stops" the noose from slackening off(tried it out on my arm & it was bl**dy painful after a few seconds of being tightened)Watch the video in slow motion with the sound off, do not look at CM watch just the dog, all the signs of stress & unease are there before the dog or CM do anything. The dog should not have been put in the situation, without a relationship with the dog already in place

Ewww. I havent seen that coller and I hope never to

Difficult to really answer what I would do in that situation - cos I would never be in exactly that situation

But I have had a dog agressive dog redirect its anger. It was on a flat lead tho and I had built up a bond with the dog
I just stood still and kept the lead loose and she realised I was not another threat and turned away from me before her teeth made contact

Yes, if I had really messed up and was in a situation similar to that I would prob react by instinct and try and hold the dog away from me - but it would be on a flat lead - and I would have to spend alot of time rebuilding the bond of trust between us

For a totaly strange dog that might react like that - what about double leading it?? Muzzle, protective clothing if it really is that bad

SO how about someone answering my question
as that was a clip from his show, supposedly showing what a great trainers/behaviourist/whatever he calls himself is

What did the dog learn from that experience about its next meeting with the collie?? and about Cesar??

What did the collie learn??

What did the owners learn??

Well it wasnt posative was it

The first dog I took on with aggression toward both people and dogs was a GSD. The behaviourest I took him to told me to let go of the lead every time a dog/person approached him that he reacted to in a nagative way. At first I found this shocking, but I trusted her so I did it, and everytime I did he backed away to what he considered to be a safe distance.

So to answer what I would have done in CM situation, not that I would EVER put a dog in such a place I would have let go of the lead and give the dog his "safe zone"

Yes, to you and I, we can see the situation for what it was; an aggressive dog that didn't like the fact that CM had control over it. Had it stopped jumping up and attacking, CM would not have had to resort to forceful tactics. Unfortunately though, we are not seeing what the anti-CMs are seeing. Their version of events appears to be very different.

I admire you for remaining calm and standing your ground but you really are wasting your time. The anti-CMs will not budge on what they believe - that CM is a cruel animal abuser! Hey ho, there you go

He did more than once and even SAT down too!!! Or did your blinkers provent you from seeing that??

No - we are reading the dogs bodylanguage.....

Back to rudeness because someone disagrees I don't have blinkers so stop trying to ram your views down my throat, thanks;-)

Okay Tassle, I have looked at the clip many times now because I am trying to see what the anti-cms are talking about. I can't see it. I don't have blinkers on as someone suggested I clearly see an aggressive dog that doesn't like being controlled. That's my opinion; my honest opinion. I appreciate that although you don't agree with CM that you are not rude, like some on here

It's not just my veiws though... It's fact! Bodylanguage say's eveything, some can see it and others can't, simple.

I'm not trying to ram anything down your throat, I am trying to help you see what you are not seeing.

I try

A couple of trainers/behaviourists in the US have brought out a bodylanguage DVD. It is done in pictures and video and absolutly facisnating. Really helps you to pick out minute changes, going over things in slow motion and with points on the pictures.

It is by no way an exhaustive list but absolutely fascinating.

Right ok, I am sorry for coming across as rude. I get frustrated with people sometimes, and have had a bad day

I appreciate that Cheyenne and, regardless of how I've been slammed on here, I have looked at the clip over and over. I don't praise CM because I'm his greatest fan, honestly, I praise him because his methods work for me. Admittedly, I don't have experience with large breeds or aggressive dogs. I suppose I've been lucky - I don't know. It's just that (very unlike you and maybe I was a bit sensitive because some of the nasties have been digging at me on this thread) your post did seem somewhat inflammatory. I thought you were joining the others on here and were going to start having a go.

I will have another look at the clip in the morning, when my mind is fresh. I must say, the behaviour on this thread of a few (slamming Chihuahuas just to get at me ) has been appalling but I try not to back out of these CM debates because so many pro-CMs do because you do get a load of grief

I think people back out because they don't see the point. I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this becasue it winds me up when people can't see, what I feel, is obvious distress.

You don't have to justify the methods you use unless you are trying to get other people to use them. I don't feel the need to justify my training or any of the people whos training methods I follow or use. I also don't feel the need to stand up for them. The results I see in the training I do are enough for me.

I'm not having a go, I am going on what I know. I worked for a rescure kennel for a long time, and have fostered and rehabilitated many dogs, most with aggrestion related problems. I have infact been cornered by a Rottie in her kennel run, and was bitten (my fault 100%!). I did not react as I knew it would just escalate, all I did was cross my arms and turned my back on her and tacked myself into the corner, it took only sec's if that for her to stop. By doing what I did, I removed the threat that she perceived and therefore calming the situation. This is what CM IMO should have done also.

ETA - To threaten is to be attact, weather you mean it or not, it takes understanding to know what you are doing in the FULL meaning of the word... IMHO CM does not have understanding.

I am sorry if I came across as rude, and my post as inflammatory. But I have seen first hand the result of the influence CM (and the likes of him) has on people, and the damage it has done to the poor dogs that have gone through this kind of treatment. I do get very emotional and react as is.

Can I ask everyone that thinks this treatment of this dog is ok.... If you thought you life was under threat, how would you react? Would you just lay down and say "ok, do as you will with me" or would you fight tooth and nail?