Cesar Milan with wolf dog Shadow General Chat

Well all I can comment on re "Wolfy" types is what I have read. Ear biting, pinning down are two of the "techniques" used.

I have bitten Ela's ear once but we were playing the 'i bite you' game and it was an accident Mummy cuddles on the sofa and all was forgiven though.

Clearly a lot of ridiculous (in your opinion) people contributing to this thread then, me included. ;-)

I must be watching another video because I did see the dog fix on the collie and as it had attacked the collie in the past Cesar was trying to stop any reaction before it escalated. The dog saw the collie, then its ears went up and tail went up, in a dog that has attacked previously these are the first things you look for.

What would you do if you had a large dog on the end of your lead that was jumping up and trying to bite you? Yes the lead was tight around the dogs throat but every time CM lowered his hand to let the lead go slack the dog jumped and snapped again. I would be interested to know what you think he should have done in the situation (the dog trying to bite him not the dog fixating on the collie)

When my dogs see other dogs their ears and tail go up but it doens't mean they are going to attack (or have done previously)

Whilst not defending CM (or slating him either) I know from experience (with a dog aggressive staffy I fostered) that it is possible to tell when a dog is going to attack from the minutest of signs. I knew Tilly's MO so well that I knew within milliseconds if she was going to go into attack mode.

My mum has her now and when she has brought her up here I've told Tilly off because I've seen her going into that mode (chest out, tail up, tense). My mum wondered why I told her off because she couldn't see the signs. But because I was attuned to the dog and her ways I knew what was coming next.

IMO you can't tell from watching a video if the dog was or wasn't going to attack. You have to be there and have a visceral experience.

Maybe not for your dogs, but for dogs with a previous history of aggression it probably does mean that ;-)

You are right the dog did fix a gaze on the Collie.

But I think the point of the argument is... the CM instigated the aggressive behaviour in the dog.

You ask what people would have done.. well not being a trainer, I can only speak for myself.

If it had been my dog.. who otherwise was showing no aggression, other than looking at another dog.

And lets say for the argument that I knew adverse actions would instigate such aggression.. I would certainly not provoke a situation where I knew 1) the dog was going to become aggressive 2) I knew I was going to back myself into a courner to deal with what I had created.

Personally I would have used any form of distraction I could think of to...1) gain the dogs focus on me..2) get it willingly and have a happy relaxed dog at the end of the exersice.


Which for my limited experience with dog aggression.. is exactly what I do..if I have to stand on my head , singing the national anthem to get my dogs attention on me... I will.... the result is a dog who looses interest in the other dog, as he is looking at the silly antics her owner is up to.... hence exersice is achieved without confrontation.


The point being, that if CM knew the dog had a hair trigger, and he has a history of aggression to humans... his expertise on dog psychology would have told him , he was setting the situation up for a battle and fall, where the dog learns nothing other than more aggression at the end of the exersice.

to me, this is the sort of trainer that comes from the dark ages.... I saw one like that yrs ago, with Millie... she trainer set my girl back mths in her rehabilitation...I learned a very hard lesson that day.... if you have doubts with methods people use... listen to them.

After that I saw someone who taught me the techniques I was comfortable with to achieve what we have today... and not a negative methods in sight.

Yes.....but why put the dog into that situation in the first place? Why not work on desensitizing the dog from a safe distance where all parties feel comfortable? Why then...when the dog gets into its 'lock' and tenses up like that introduce body contact from a direction the dog cannot see?

He did not read the dog when it started getting tense....there were signs before he 'nudged' it that the dog was getting aroused...why push it further. He knew more of the history of the dog that we do and was obviously aware that the dog was likely to react to this. ....

I hope to god that I would be able to read the dog better in the first place so as to not get in that situation. So far so good - I have worked with large dogs who have been dog and people aggressive and not yet been bitten or been forced to string a dog up to protect myself.

OMFG! This dog HAD attacked the collie before, and the ears and tail are signs that the dog is alert, in a dog that has attacked the dog it is looking at before, these are warning signs - as I said in my post!

My question was, what would you do if the dog was jumping and biting you. I'm not talking about the lead up, you are all sayiing that he was choking the dog but in that situation I don't see what else he could have done to stop it from seriously biting him (or anyone else for that matter) Whether he caused the reaction or not, what else could he do?

Right..BUT this is also the same signs as almost ANY dog will show when they see a dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF the dog had attacked the collie before then the owners were at fault..try training the owners before you choke the poor dog!!

Ummmmmm what could he have done???

KEEP IT AWAY FROM THE COLLIE!!!!!!!

it would have been better to have grabbed it by the scruff and pinned it on the ground which is what its parents would have done to it when growing up and what any other dog stronger than it would have done in a pack situation, until it realised he was stronger than it and then gave up.
i would not have used a lead as cm did with this dog.

OK, do I need to ask again, for whatever reason the dog was trying to bite him, what else could he have done to prevent himself getting bitten.

Yes it was the owners fault that the dog was allowed to get as badly behaved as it was but the fact is the dog was that badly behaved so something needed to be done.

But if the dog is jumping up and biting you how are you meant to grab its scruff without getting bitten? He actually did grab it and pin it to the ground once he had the opportunity to do so

I personally do not believe the dog would have carried on trying to attack him if he had not strung it up. The way it was behaving - going in once then backing off...if he had not strung the collar up the dog would have released that tension in the first lunge. He should then have put distance between them - as he should have done in the first place!

But we will never know - this is my opinion.

it was inevitable he was going to get bitten, so had nothing to lose by pinning dog without using lead.he didnt pin it to the ground when he had the opportunity it almost passed out which is why it collapsed, then cm looked like he had worked wonders.
the fact is in this case it took him by suprise and he was out of his depth.
the constant saying, there we go, there we go as he does to convince you what he is doing is working is in this case not the desired affect.
i have said i usually agree with cm but not with this dog.
i would rather have been bitten and won the dog over by over powering it which is what would happen naturally than do what cm did to that dog.

Alpha rolling does not occur in the wild, the Breeding pair(those which CM refers to as"Pack Leaders""Alphas") do not roll & pin their offspring(because the pack is consists only of their direct offspring). They may in extreme circumstances hold the offspring down by the neck, but they are not upside-down, they are flattened to the ground.

You cannot"win over"a dog by forcing it into a submissive position & overpowering it(would like to have seen him try this with my Schutzhund GSD who stood over 31 inches at the withers, offspring in Wolf pack naturally offer the submissive position to their parents & in multi dog households like mine, young dogs often offer the submissive position to the older dogs(one of mine even does this to the cats).

If the dog had had a run in with the collie before it was not a suitable"stooge"dog to reshape the dogs reactions.

Humans are not members of dog"packs"& few dog"packs"are real packs(ie all the members apart from the parents/Breeding Pair, are either siblings or full siblings.)

Dogs & humans live in a symbiotic relationship-not a pack relationship & those who cannot understand this will never understand the true situation.

Well not strangle it, not nudge/kick it, build a relationship of trust between him & the dog, before subjecting the dog to the stressful situation, used a good stooge dog that the dog had never seen before & discovered the dog's comfort zone & desensitized the dog gradually instead of using a quick fix method. Not be confrontational with the dog with his(CM)body language, A whole myriad of things to retrain the dog without using force.