Cesar Milan with wolf dog Shadow General Chat

That dog showed an interest in another dog and was back-kicked by CM for its interest. CM was not even the owner. I see the dog making sporadic lunges at CM, probably in response to CM tightening the collar and giving threatening signals.

I do not believe the dog's behaviour warranted this reaction and I feel CM over-reacted in a threatening manner.

I don't know the history but feel that the owners need to learn how to live with a large dog.

I never said he was a wolfdog! just that I had a dog that showed similar behaviour

x

The dog has the illusion slip lead up under it's ears & pulled tight that is CM's method, he trains using pain & fear & the dog is quite clearly being subjected to mistreatment, before he kicks/nudges the dog in the hindquarters-What if the dog has severe HD ? even a gentle "CM nudge"would cause pain.

In all probability the owners hadn't done any training in any shape or form with the dog, as the behaviour shown is typical of a bolshy dog that is hurt. A dog cannot say, "don't do that it hurts"they react instinctively with their mouths

I've watched that clip a number of times now and I do not believe that is the behaviour of a nasty, aggressive dog. There are too many pauses; I think the dog was trying to understand what the hell was going on with this stranger kicking him, choking him and baiting him.

If that dog had really wanted a piece of CM, I think he would have tried a little harder. Poor lad.

This one was done before a wee while ago

Dosent matter if it was a kick or a nudge, it startled a really stressed dog who then redirected its anger
and IMO it didnt really go for CM, if it had wanted to it could have done some real damage

I was also not happy how the other dog was used in that clip - and how CM showed how he has no idea about dog body laungage when he asked if the collie always tucked its tail up like that??? No you moron, the dog had just been freaked out by the whole experience - and as a collie will remember that and be likely to react badly to that dog in future

I agree with you, if the dog REALLY was attacking him in the full meaning of it, then CM would not have stood a chance, and would have receved meny more, and much more serious injuries than he did!

I personally would have let go of the lead if a dog reacted badly like that, and have done. Dogs tend to "turn" when they feel trapped and unable to excape, but as soon as you let go of the lead and they can get away from the perceived threat they stop and back away. It's all down to the 3 F's - Freeze, Flight or Fight, when on a lead there is only one option open to them.

The dog was out of control because it was put in a situation it didnt know how to handle, CM wanted it to react and pushed it till it did
Makes rubbish TV if he had trained it positivly

Except for the size my Mia would make that dog look like a pussy cat
She is not people agressive - neither was that dog

What CM should have done is taught the dog that it had nothing to fear from the other dog, that being around the other dog is rewarding
He should have had the two dogs at a big enough distance that the dogs were not fixated on each other and rewarded them just for being calm in each others presence
and then he could have slowly brought the dogs together, everyone showing the nice calm energy he always talks about but never actually uses
He could have taught the owners how to teach the dog how to cope with strange dogs - and also how to read when his dog was getting over stressed in a situation

dominance - rubbish, the freeze, fight or flight response is a response to stress and fear, a dom animal is confident and does not need to fixate on another dog

Yes "Joedee" sarcasm if you like to see it that way That's the only reaction that I can have when people are talking about the dog not being people aggressive (did you see the damage it did to CM's arm) and CM basically being cruel. The dog was behaving like a wild animal, instead of the domesticated pet it was supposed to be! CM was controlling the dog using the collar. He was not hurting it. The dog didn't like the fact that CM was in control, hence him attacking a human - no excuse for that in my book. He didn't have the dog in a corner attacking him with a stick for goodness sake!

It's pretty worrying that many on here see that dog as just having a bit of a problem that can be sorted out with a bit of training. I wouldn't want that dog anywhere near my dogs or children. I just hope the owners have enough sense to never trust that dog with any other dogs, in its lifetime.

I think the dog world is becoming a little like the human world. Instead of dealing with behavioural problems directly, it's all softly softly and lots of care for the animal/human that is behaving totally unacceptably. If a problem is severe, it needs dealing with appropriately. Not a few treats and a bit of understanding but proper training to save the dog from being pts and save any other dogs from being attacked!

I still say we didn't get to see the dogs behaviour with its owners or what it had or hadn't done to the border collie before- without knowing the history its very easy to say how you would handle the dog differently.

There are all sorts of training methods available and there is never going to be one answer to all problems, for some of the dogs that cm has at his centre he is the last resort between life and death, many owners go to him with a dog they are afraid of because it has bitten them/other people or dogs - sure you can ask if they were the right sort of owners for certain dogs in the first place but they have a dog that they are scared of and have been advised to put it to sleep cm works with them and if they are still not happy around the dog he takes it and keeps it at his centre until a suitable owner is found, the dogs interacting with him don't cower away at the centre and if that dog gets a second chance then im all for it.

I know from personal experience many years ago how hard it is to have a much loved pet put to sleep because of nervous aggression and nobody wanted to help the breed and ordinary rescues told us they wouldn't take our dog and offered no help.(if dogsey had been around maybe i would have got some help from you guys)

I can't get the link to work, think my pc has gone on the blink again :-(

You really are very very naive, get someone to put a cord around your neck under your chin & get them to pull it really tight-then tell me it doesn't cause pain !

Any damage done to CM is his own fault-did you see the damage the Bulldog did to his arm-after he had Alpha rolled it to prove his dominance was that the dog's fault to o?

From your profile I note you have a good experience of small dogs-how much experience have you had dealing with dogs that have been incorrectly treated(ie treated like a human & not a dog)& have developed severe behavioural problem ? I don't mean your dogs but those of others.

You describe the dog as behaving like a wild animal-no it's not it's behaving like an animal in severe pain being eventually strung up by a noose tight at the top of it's neck where there are a myriad of nerves & blood vessels & of course the dogs trachea. Closing the trachea causes the animal to panic & try to escape by any means & that is exactly what this dog was doing.

Do you use a slip lead under your dogs ears ?

Hurting a dog isn't just hitting it throttling is just as painful.

Dogs with behavioural problems are not just given "a bit" of training-we don't all go for the CM quick fix. It takes a long time & much patience to get to the root of the dogs problem, not just a day or a week much much longer the worse the behaviour the longer the solution takes to resolve it.

I get very concerned that people see this recently "legal"CM as the saviour to all so called "Red Zone"dogs. He has taken dog training & rehabilitation back over 40 years to physical & mental force being applied to show dominance over a companion animal. We do not need to dominate pets, we need to have a trusting relationship on both side which doesn't come from inflicting pain & punishment.

I am always confused on CM threads that his supporters go on about treating dogs like dogs, and one method wont work for every dog and you need to understand what is going on with the dog

In every case of 'aggressive' dogs I have seen CM with he does EXACTLY the same thing
He forces the dog into a situation and keeps pushing it until it reacts, he then punsihes the dog and physicly dominates it (often by restricting its air) until the dog gives in

That dog was NOT people agressive, all its focus was on the other dog - it only turned to CM when he startled it - that is redirected anger - that is why people talk about not going in yourself to split up a dogfight

- SO are you all saying that if one of your dogs was attacked by another dog and you went in to pull it off, and at the time the dog was so hyped up that it had no idea who you were and it turned and bit you - should your dog be PTS??

I have said before and ill say again - that was a huge powerful dog, it gave CM a v inhibited bite, it wasnt even trying to connect with CM it was trying to comunicate with him - as a self appontied 'dog whisperer' you would expect that he would be able to understand what the dog was saying to him
- and also he should have had more interest in the mental state of the collie

I dont go 'softly softly' with my dogs. I treat them like dogs and I behaive like a person
I try and understand their triggers and what they are telling me and I try and teach them what is acceptable behaviour


It was asked what we would do in that situation and I answered
So to pose another question

If that dog was cowering with its tail between its legs, ears flat, hiding behind the owners legs and literely peeing itself when the other dog approached
How would you all deal with that dog?

I would about turn and take the dog away

It's your right to think that I am naive, just as I have the right to believe that people who view CM as cruel and abusive, are being ridiculous.

The point is, if the dog in question wasn't having severe problems already, CM wouldn't have had to hold it the way he did. He was trying to save himself being attacked, as I see it. And you mention my reaction to having a cord pulled tightly round my neck, it's hardly the point is it. However, if I were trying to bite somebody, I'd deserve a cord around my neck, as I would be a danger to others. The softly softly approach is a joke when you are talking about training dogs that are showing severe aggression of any nature. To say this dog attacked because CM was hurting it, is ridiculous. It was on the programme because it was an aggressive dog and the owners couldn't manage it. You have to get the scenario in context. If CM went walking down the street and randomly started grabbing dogs by the collar, using unreasonable force, then yes he would be all the things he is being accused of. He's not though is he? He's going to families that have out of control dogs and he is doing his best to teach the owners ways to overcome the dogs problems, so as to maybe save the dogs' lives!

Anyways, we could argue the CM debate until we are blue in the face. I will never change my mind on CM and you won't change yours. I just get tired of hearing people making CM out so bad, when he has clearly helped many, many dogs and their owners with his methods.

If CM knew he was going to get bitten would he not have used a muzzle in the first place ? makes sense !
I am really surprised that he had put himself in that position, I have been walking Inka and tapped his rear he does not like it at all, kinda made him jump with fright and look straight at his rear, he didn't realise it was me .
I suppose some dogs will react to that type of touch/ nudge/ kick in a certain way, Inka was frightened, but Inka isn't agressive, maybe the dog reacted like that because he is agressive ?

What he does is he sets the dog up to fail.

To everybody: Do you think that this is entertainment and should be shown on TV? Even if these extreme methods work and I would have my doubts, do you think that they should be shown on TV. Afterall a shock collar in the right hands might have an effect but in the hands of inexperienced or idiots might have the wrong effect.

Might not some of the public watch this stuff and think, 'yeah my dogs causing trouble maybe I should kick it and strangle it' ? The TV program makers surely become responsible then...

WDO I think sadly yip a lot of the people who do watch him and see the end results in the programme will try to interpret what they think and use what he does, when they don't get the desired effect then maybe the touch / nudge / kick and strangle will get more intense with frustration on the owners parts, even though the programme does give a warning, not to try the stuff at home, some folks will see them as quick fix methods...

My dogs are calm and happy around me but I don't string them up and kick them!

quotecheekychi.
It's your right to think that I am naive, just as I have the right to believe that people who view CM as cruel and abusive, are being ridiculous.


normally i support cms ways of training.
however in this case i was appalled. the only reason the dog stopped attacking was cos he couldnt breathe. watch it again and you will realise that.
he didnt gain respect by dominating the dog he was killing it.
he was in pain.what nonsense that his bits were out cos he was trying to dominate, he was in pain. when a dog is in pain this will often happen, it also happens when they are ill.
the dog didnt give in he was losing conciousness.
disgraceful and to think people will copy cm.