Are the new wolf look a like hybrids... Questions

Who you sayin lyin?

Morning WDO. I hope we can continue without the sarcasm and silly remarks today. (both sides!)

Ahh, ok, perhaps you could point us to some photos then to demonstrate this, because the few Ive seen dont fit at all. However, I expect what one person sees another will not, common in judging and showing dogs, just an opinion.

Yet we see them mooching about freely in the paddocks without an attempt to escape, so perhaps its not that "they" can be hard to contain, just this one? If so, backs up my point about being "typical" doesnt it?

Humour me, tell me again.

Having read through several thread on the breed forum, Ms Keizer appears to be the subject of much debate, not from anyone in the UK, but owners and breeders of Czech Wolfdogs and Saarloos from pretty much all over the continent. Do you think they have any foundation for their thinking? Including things like pictures of dogs being referred to as "Cornelia's typical CsV x Saarloos" etc.. and the fact she registers dogs in different countries etc.. avoiding certain laws.

Can I ask you also, with regard to Paul Winder, were you at the time he was at these kennels visiting them also? If not, do you think its fair to assume, especially given the dreadfully thin dogs we have seen on the photos, that things may of deteriorated and that you didnt see them in this way?

Im being serious, I admire you for defending your breeder 100%, but we sometimes have misplaced loyalties, to which I have found out recently against my better judgement.

Ok - I think we will have to agree to disagree. My experiences based on the dogs I have worked with have been very different.

I wish you were close enough to come and meet Pippin (our freal dog.) We could not let him out of the house for the first 3 weeks we had him for fear of him running off. No idea what his experience was but the only reason he was caught was someiong with patience leaving food for him closer to the house over a month and then finally in teh door and closing it.

No one ever saw him eat when he was loose - if he saw a person he ran.

You MIGHT like to consider the fact that the Saarloos share a similar genetic history to the Czech, so the chances of throwing up similar phenotypical traits must be there. For example the Saarloos suffered for decades with throwing up GSD type markings at regular intervals. The Saarloos has more coat variation than the Czech but we are now seeing coat colour divergence in that breed as well, with predominately silver or yellow colours appearing in some countries.

Mrs. Keizer has also allowed free access of her kennels to a well known university for genetic study into gene inheritance for certain conditions like PRA in the CWD, not hiding much there is she, but also not going to be popular with other breeders! Yes in the past she has liked to show her dogs lean and everyone knows it. She may have registered a puppy somewhere else (cant ask the pup can we?) but this has not been my experience, I have also been present when a French vet visited the kennels (yes I took his picture vaccinating a pup and no I will not post it).

So why you interested in all this?

Dont buy that sorry, its like saying a whippet looks like a Greyhound, it doesnt!

Loads of kennels do that, your point is? Looking for PRA in a dog is nothing to do with crossbreding at all whatsoever is it?

You think the dogs in those photos were "lean" Im sorry, you have really shocked me there, you'd be prosecuted here for dogs in such poor condition, its disgraceful.

Its difficult to follow your posts as the quotes dont add up, so forgive me if I miss bits, im trying to locate them.

No sarcasm, please tell me again.

Yes the pics of Carlic on the owners site, but also as a youngster on the Saarloos database. How old was Genova when she was bred? I think she was 2yrs this January? making her really not old enough to have had a litter even now!! I have read that she is small yes, but not only small, too lighly built and Im sorry but IMO not suitable as a brood bitch to promote the breed. (no offence intended Navajo)

These pics:
http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142801925625077330

http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142801410229001730

http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142801624977366562

http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142801822545862210

http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142802144668409474

http://picasaweb.google.cz/Mirkawolf/DeLoubaTarDogs02#5142802247747624594

My "interest" is in dogs welfare.

WDO sweetcheeks,

Maybe the do come back to one person..possibly because he was the one actually there!! I would critizise him for breeding crosses and selling to the public..don't beleive in any crosses being sold to the public never mind ones with wolves in them..I have read part of the forum..but made up my own mind with pictures etc..

You seem to be basing the fact that Paul Winder lives in Britain so cannot possibly be taking this French Kennel to court..maybe HE isn't..maybe the authority's are..

I'm sure i read the court case is in Holland (not France) on a breed specific forum, i will try to find the thread, there are many, it may take some time.
I also believe Genova is not a suitable brood bitch to promote the breed (i'm so sorry Navajo)
Would you say Genova was a suitable choice to promote the breed Wolfdogowner?

I understand people wanting to defend their dogs and breeders i really do but when there is so much speculation and the breeders concerned have all retired before the court case, well it doesent look good does it?

I'm not sure why you quoted me here but i can certainly answer the last question. Mr Winder has done it (Kizzy) also has been on several forums stating his intention to cross wolves with his dogs here in the U.K in his latest breeding programme, hope that helps.

Dont believe you answered this WDO.

So thats fine then?

Thats stretching international law isn't it! The Kennel is in France. Bizarre.

Well I can see where this weeks witch hunt is going (again). I don't know Genova, simple as that so I am not going to comment. Carlic what's your point over him? His pictures in several places. You keep talking of several dogs bit have so far only picked on Genova -not all dogs end up being show dogs not her fault if she don't come up to your exacting standard.

Sorry you shocked over pics of a dog you never met of a breed you don't know in a foreign country. I think you should prosecute the judge who gave it second place if I were you. Previously didn't look at the pics as I saw the name on the link.

Ok so her dogs are thin does that make them cross breeds? I can't see this conversation going anywhere can you? You lost me completely on who is prosecuting who and why and where over what which happened when which was witnessed by some one from where? Who isn't involved any way?

I guess you would approve of this then, being as it is closer to home and about keeping of 'supposed' F3 wolfdogs in the UK:

" I keep them outside at night, this lets them play and not trash the house ( which they will do ) and also putting them out at night helps your possition as alfa to them. any way as i put her out i made shure every thing was ready for her, her bedding, making sure the compound was sacure and she had water. After thinking she was ready for the night I went in and went to bed. The were a few howls but what ever you do DO NOT go out and tell them to be quiet. they wont understand and all it will do is show them that if they howl youll come runnin. I put a BIG bone in with her so it would keep her interested ( not a small one, you dont want them choking )."

"First of all I dont feed my wolfdogs dogfood or dog biscuits. I feed them one a day normaly in the mornin, but i try to feed them slightly diferent times each day, this stops them gettin into a routine, routines can be bad as if one day you cant feed them at that time for some reason it will stop a lot of stress. next is what i feed them, well i feed them meat from the butchers, every thing from big slabs of beef to chicken legs, dont worry about bones they have never had a problem with them, they eat it all bones and all. I give them trip, liver, harts etc once a week and fish, again bones and all."

Hmm.

Oh and good luck with next weeks witch hunt!

Of course not.
You will find my opinions on such a crossing here http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=100239
and on a lot of other threads here at Dogsey.

Hi Wolfdog owner, as i said i will look for the thread but from what i can remember its got something to do with the dogs being born in France and then registered in Holland. Cant comment further until i find the thread. Wont be searching today as i'm off out with my daughters but will get back to you with it.

There is NO witch hunt, for goodness sake, ask the OP why she posted the thread, maybe she is on a witch hunt, although I doubt it, perhaps interested?

My point over carlic is as I have said SEVERAL times, I LIKE him! I spoke of Genova BECAUSE there is info on here about her, plus photos which is what you asked for! Who said all dogs are upto standard? Not me, your picking now as you cant answer the questions can you?

I asked if the wolfdog owners and breeder are all wrong, you wont answer.

I asked if its possible things have changed since Paul Winder was at the kennels, you wont answer, instead you refuse to believe anything could possibly be amiss.

Im shocked at seeing pitifully thin animals full stop, disgrace!!! Whats wrong with the name on the link? You have a problem with this person?

FINALLY, you accept her dogs are thin, no it doesnt make them crossbreeds, but it does make her look particularly bad as an owner keeping dogs like that, there is no excuse. I dont understand how anyone would support anyone like that? but thats me.

I havent lost you at all. However Ill finalise my questions for you.

1. Having read through several threads on the breed forum, Ms Keizer appears to be the subject of much debate, not from anyone in the UK, but owners and breeders of Czech Wolfdogs and Saarloos from pretty much all over the continent. Do you think they have any foundation for their thinking? If not, why not?

2. Do you think its fair to say (given you now accept her dogs are thin) that the kennels and dogs could of indeed of been in the condition Paul Winder claims they were at that time?

3. Do you think the dogs bought into this country were all good representatives of the Saarloos Wolfdog, in mind and construction?

4. Given that Genova is only just 2yrs old, do you think it was reasonable to mate her so young? do you think she is a good specimen to promote the Saarloos in this country?

Im sorry if you think there is some alterior motive her, I assure you there isnt, just concern for the welfare of animals and those that appear to exploit them, nothing more.

I think the other thing to consider is,

given the condition of her show dogs, pelvic bones sticking out!
is it possible the breeding bitches other dogs are in far worse condition?

Liz,

Perhaps you should give Dawn a buzz about this as she claims to have 4 secret sources which know all about the alleged court case. Initially she only mentioned 1-now she has 4. Also, on questioning she has mentioned nothing about Holland. Mmm it seems these "secret sources" are apparently not as reliable as at first thought-either that or she telling porkies.

Now, I am interested to here if you have some concrete proof of a court case in Holland-then we can hear about it and all discuss matters.

Dawn and others have been on a continual witchhunt over these dogs from every possible angle so maybe youl be able to understand why, as a wolfdogowner, I find anything these people say hard to beleive.

Furthermore, Dawn has crossed the line in bringing Genova into things. This is Navajo's dog whom presumably he loves and care for- I think if she has an ounce of decency shel step back, apologize for that at least and answer the question wolfdogowner posed to her regarding LISTING THE OTHER DOGS SHE HAS A PROBLEM WITH.

Ive had a wee look on the other wolfdog website. Do I agree with F3 wolfdog hybrids being sold on the open market to people? No-of course not its appauling. Furthermore if this guy hasnt been at the French Kennels for a number of years and is now apparently "providing evidence" or whatever-that is shady to say the least.

I will agree the dogs in the pics look far to thin for my liking- but then I have a distate of "showing" dogs in general. Many "showdogs" are kept in an unhealthy state. This is my own prejudice, I guess, which unlike many on this forum I choose not to force down other people's throats.

Initially many of you said "its not the dogs" then went on to tear apart every part of their appearance and behaviour. Then it was the owners- all lumped into the category of egotistical maniacs with no knowledge of how to handle these animals. Then it was the breeders-I am not defending the French Kennels its just that I choose to believe someone whos been there (wolfdogowner) and I have no faith in what some of you say due to the previous two points. All I can say is that I visited the Kennels in Devon before I bought my dogs and they were second to none in their care of the dogs-that is my opinion, I have actually been there, I am entitled to that opinion as you are to yours. I have not been duped-much as Im sure many of you "dog lovers" would love that to be the case.

Once again were going round and round in circles. Basically many of you guys dont like the dogs, the owners and the breeders. Its quite simple really if you dont want one dont buy one- but respectfully allow others to hold their own opinions-particularly those who have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of the dogs, kennels and ownership.

Dont know if ill return to the "debate" or not as it seems totally fruitless now- but all the best in your continuing endeavors folks!

cheery bye

stay lucky

Rubbish! Crossed a line? When I was ASKED to name dogs? You are really something else you are! I DID name others, like ZsaZsa for starters, or did you miss that bit?

AGAIN, No witch hunt, I had NOTHING to do with the thread being started, it was your sarcastic comments that started all this on THIS thread.

One more thing, if Navajo is offended in any way, I will personally apologise to her, no offence is intended to her or her dog, I was providing the answers to the questions asked, more than some have done!