Genetic diversity, wolfdog and wolfdog crosses in the uk Discussions

After reading and or being envolved in some of the other woldog/wolfdog cross threads, I was wondering about the size of the genepool for breeds like the cwd, saarloos and their respective crosses.

I remember reading somewhere, sombody saying that people in Europe won't sell pure cwd or saarloos to the uk, because of the cross breeding. So this begs the question, how many pure cwd and swh are there, and is this number enough to sustain a healthy genepool here in the uk. How closely related are the breeding dogs? if new blood lines arn't introduced, is there not a risk, that the genepool maybe become bottleknecked like has been claimed in the ni/ut, and with that a higher insidents of inherited genetic diseases as a result of inbreeding and the lack of diversity.

This in my oppinion, applies to the crosses as well. As it seems, that the same sires are being used as studs by several breeders. I thought that the reason for the crosses in the first place, was to improve the genepool of the ni, but by using the same sires throughout the the crossbreeding programme, you are infact creating the same problem you seeked to avoid. By this I mean, that a number of these crosses will be halfbrother/sister or other close relatives, so if you were to breed from these crosses, to other crosses, without bringing new blood in, you'll just end back at square one, dogs being to closely related to one another.

The solution, for the pure breeds at least, seems very simple, import new blood. But if it is true that people in other countries won't sell to anyone here, then it makes me wonder, from a genetics point of view, do these breeds have a viable future here.

This thread is not a discution of the rights and wrongs of these crosses, just to make that clear. There are other threads for that.

I am genuinly interested to here peoples views, reguardless of what side of the fence you're on, as long as it doesn't turn into a point scoring, bitchfest.

You have brought up some very valid points, I will be very intrested to hear form those who are in this breeding programe how they plan to do this,

From what I have seen so far, its just another ploy to produce more pups.

Thank you for your reply.

I hope this thread manages to stay relatively on track.

I too would be very interested to find out the present situation and also where they are heading with Saarloos, CWD and the crosses in the UK.

I doubt you will get much info here as most of the activity seems to be around the CW/Shoshone/SC pack and I don't think they look on Dogsey very favourably from recent goings on.

oh I dont know SC was on just the other day, I would think she would be happy to come on and explain the breeding programe,

Perhaps, but she had (well one of her NI's really) a litter of pups yesterday - not sure if it is CWD or Saarloos hybrid litter. Whatever, I imagine she's knackered today, lol.

Thanks for your replies. I hope that some of these breeders will come on here, as like I've said, genuinly interest to no.

I just have this strange feeling that they'll be to court up in the other thread.

I know that Sansorella has written up the information on her website which I can't link to here.

If you can go to her website I'm sure you will get more of an idea of what is happening re: crossbreeding programme.

Not sure it goes into genetics/gene pool in fine detail though.

Thanks, off to have a look now.

I think its an excellent topic Tazer and from what info i have looked at available there seems to be as much contriversy surrounding these dogs as there is the wolf lookalikes. Alleged crosses with fake pedigree's, alleged bad breeding practices and so on and so on.
The very subject of wolfdogs cause's such an uproar and leave's 'Joe Public' not knowing who to believe. From what i can see most breeders (not all) are out to discredit each other & each others dogs. Its a very sad state of affairs.

I'm afraid i have to agree with you Shona, i would love to know the numbers of CWD and Saarloos as i get the feeling they are few and far between in this country.

Well in all fairness to Sandra every time she tries to she gets attacked.

Hi Liz. Yes there is def some dodgy goings on in the pure wolfdog world as well. Of course there're many good breeders to. But I find it strange that as some have stated, the people in Europe won't sell to the uk, or think very little of us in the wolfdog respect when things like this are going on.

"Re: new crossings

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacino
when is the new crossings taking place? what effect will this have on the breed with the F.C.I., with new wolf blood introduced it will put an end to the czech in the u.k, & most likely in some other european countries

When? We put the votting pools to collect our users' opinion because such crossing already took place in Czech Republic. You can find info about it in the database - there are three dogs with the kennel name "Mutara". But it's hard to describe them with "crossings" because "compromitation" is a better word for it...

Why? As you can read in the breed standard the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is "crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf". It is written very clear, or? Now guess what the Czech breeding committee has done... They registered in the register to the breed book of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs three dogs which are offsprings of a white Tundra Wolf and a mix (the owner of this mix wrote in a magazine that it has the blood of a Alaskan Malamute, but the people from the Czech breeding committee sometimes say it is a GSD(-mix?), sometimes they say in it a CzW without papers ). When you will take a look on the photos of this (wolf)dogs you will see that this crossings have nothing common with our breed.... Simply said: they are untypical. And you will understand why the Slovakian Club (which is guarantee of this breed by FCI) and the German Club already send to Czech Club official protests. And also many breeders and owners in CZ Club don't agree with this "experiment".

But don't worry: none of the self-respecting breeders will ever use this dogs or ever breed with such crossings. So you don't need to be affraid that this dogs will ever capture the Europe. Maybe there will be some people in CZ which will decide to use these dogs but I don't think it will expand. Who would buy such crosses if there are so many nice, typical CzWs in this country...? But I promise you: to be sure we will collect info about such dogs and publish it here. So if one of the breeders will try to sell such puppies we will warn people that they are not buying a CzW but a crossing which is a wolfdog which we are common in the US and that have nothing to do with the breed called "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog".. "

and

"Wolf hibrid CAC!!

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For those of you that didn't know, in the dog show held this weekend in Prague, "Speciální výstavy ÈSV", a canadian wolf hibrid participated to the competition and won the open class.
WHY THE F***K DO THEY ALLOW A CANADIAN WOLF HYBRID PARTICIPATE??
WHAT IS THE MEANING??
DO THEY WANT TO "IMPROVE" THE BREED WITH THESE WOLVES??
DISGUSTING
(Netiquette: I'm shouting loud!)


My whippet Alvin lives with 2 wolfdogs and was bred up together with many wolfdogs. He think's he's a wolfdog to.
Next time I go with him and I want to be judged.
He's below the standard but very brave!!
MASSIMO"

I to can understand why Sandra or any of the other wolfdog breeders/owners might not want to come on here. As has been said, they do tend to get attacked wheneer they do.

Though I will state it here now, if this thread turns into a slanging match at any point, I'll be the first to request it to be locked.

So how many cwd or saarloos do you guys think are in the uk. I'd say arround 20-25 pure cwd, and arround 30-40 saarloos. I have no idea about the number of crosses there are.

The thing is that I can sort of see where SC is coming from, she has put a lot of time and effort into breeding NI's and by adding SWD/CWD to them, then there is the chance of increasing the gene pool and decreasing the perceived health problems. If this is to be done with a plan of improving NI's as opening the stud book would be in KC reg breeds, them it can be argued that it is a good thing as long as the dogs used are not from lines that could carry any problems.
I can't get my head round why CR is crossing after slating JK for the state of NIDs health and bad breeding practices. Why not just breed sarloos or CWD? Or is the gene pool so small that they are in trouble too.

I think that's why the information is on Sandra's website so she doesn't have to keep repeating herself and getting into arguments.

I agree that when done correctly, outcrossing can be a useful tool for expanding the genepool. But what my real concern is, raf the size of the genepool, is that, the benafits of outcrossing could be lost if the genepool is then narrowed by using the same studs to multiple bitches, and then crossing the offspring without introducing any new blood to add to diversity, wouldn't it just end up being the same as what you're trying to avoid, ref inbreeding.

I might be completely wrong ther, after all, I'm not a breeder, and only have a basic understanding of genetics, and am adding my logic to that limited knowlege, which may turn out to be way off the mark.

I am obviously not a breeder either so have limited knowledge
I would be interested to know if there is a long term goal which is being aimed for and if there is, is it an individual goal or joint?