Wolf lookalike breeders Controversial

Non looked pure greenland dog Mick that was the point, they were all pretty much hienze 57's...
You used the word evolved I think to survive in the weather they were originally used in, so does that mean that one day there was 2 plush coated dogs, from no where who had evolved to survive artic conditions, these 2 made 8 then another 8 and on and on, then man came across these plush coated dogs and thought, they would be great to keep us warm at night and pull our dinner home and guard our igloos, so man stole 2 plush coated dogs from the pack, maybe more who knows and they are the sibes mals northern breeds we see today, happened all by its self...
point being the people on the programe were doing their best to survive in artic and didn't have a breeding programe to only have pure bred dogs and don't do health testing I would think the dogs on the programe do mostly whatever they feel like and cross breed among themselves, intelligent puppies born will be used to work, surplus to demand puppies probably become a food source...fact

your point being? are you saying that all dogs should be left to breed amongst themselves and that it is ok to breed from un health tested stock?

No I do not believe all dogs should be left to breed and no healthe testing done, I read Micks 466 post which made me think a bit about Sibes and Mals and the like, after watching the programe I mentioned I noticed that in these extreme parts of the world where dogs are used for heat guarding working pulling ect, they are not pure breeds as some would believe in these remote parts of the world xx

I think you need to read Darwin's Origin of the Species.
All species (apart from humans) which successfully inhabit the Arctic regions have adapted (through the process of natural selection) to the conditions in which they live. Natural selection simply means that those individuals within an animal population which have characteristics which might assist their survival are more likely to survive and procreate. In this way, it is obvious that dogs which live in the arctic will have evolved physical mechanisms enabling their survival and they will look more wolflike than, for example, a greyhound which might not last 5 minutes in arctic temperatures.
Humans, being capable of manipulating their environment, tended to mitigate the natural selection process to an extent by the use of their intelligence and creativity - compensating for weather conditions by making clothes, buildings, methods of transport etc. Dependent upon their lifestyle and needs, different Inuit peoples developed different modes of transport. The Chukchi, who lived in North East Siberia, for example primarily used reindeer for food and transportation. A smaller group of Chukchi, living along the Bering Sea coast, were nomadic hunters and developed the use of small, fast sled dogs to carry them and their families vast distances in the hunt for game during the winter months. Over some 3000 years, these dogs became what were imported into the US in the early years of the 20th Century as Siberian Huskies. The Mahlemuit people of Alaska wanted a dog which could pull a much heavier load over shorter distances and so, again over thousands of years, what is now known as the Alaskan Malemute was developed. The Samoyed people wanted a dogs which could not only pull sleds, but herd reindeer - hence the breed we now know as Samoyeds. Simple history really.

Mick

yup Mick, I watched it and they did mention they were Greenland dogs, I thought they were rather nice..Im not sure how much work they do there these days, the main mode of transport was the quad bike these days.

150 years ago, there would have been clear differences between the dogs native to different areas. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union made strenuous attempts to wipe out all indigenous dog breeds in an attempt to produce a politically correct "one size fits all" soviet sled dog. As a result, apart from the breeds which had already been exported to the West, many of the dogs bred by indigenous peoples were made extinct.
If you also take into account the fact that Alaskan Huskies (a crossbreed bred purely for performance) has largely replaced the Siberian Husky as a sled racing dog, and is widely seen as the fastest of all the sled dogs (despite the fact that their survival depends upon artificial aids - booties, coats, belly warmers, straw bedding etc.) then it is no surprise that there is such a wide variation in "type" seen in such programmes.

Mick

For anyone that didnt see the Billy Connolly programme with the 'huskies' you can watch it here, its about 3 mins in
http://video.stv.tv/bc/catchup-billyconnollyjourneytotheedgeoft-part3-20090305-2132/

As for the dogs, they look very much like Sibes to me



Gemmsie
xx

I cant get the link to work gemma, but can you tell me, did they say greenland dog? Im pretty sure they did as my OH was asking what type of dog they were when it was on, I didnt have a clue, but im sure they mentioned it on the programe

I've just watched the clip and I have to say I agree with Gemma. All the sled dogs on the stake line look like purebred Sibes to me. I think what people need to remember is that when we post photos of our dogs, they are usually clean and well groomed. If you saw them when they are shedding their coat and just back from a muddy run in the forest, you would be hardpressed to distinguish our dogs from those in the Billy Connolly prog.

Mick

Yeah Mav looked like that last night after his 4 mile trek
Ive had to groom him out today, as he looked like a jumble sale teddy bear LOL

Gemmsie
x

While you might have a point with the above; most wolfdogs were bred originally for a purpose.

There are very few working dogs left of any kind, the vast majority being relegated the the 'companion' dog category. This is an example of the way society has changed in its relationship to animals in the last hundred or more years. In fact what you say applied equally to people like Jack London, a city dweller, who went north to answer his own "Call of the wild" at the end of the 19th century.

What might also get overlooked is the fact that to some people might find they have a fantastic relationship with their wolfdog.

In his 1868 work 'The variation of animals and plants under domestication', Charles Darwin quotes many of his correspondents or other references (as is his way) amongst which are several references to Northern dog breeds: " the wolf is often caught by the Esquimaux for the purpose of crossing with their dogs, and thus adding to their size and strength." being just one.

There are many in denial about supposed wolf content in the development of these breeds.

In the early days of dog sledding (amongst western peoples) there were many folk tales about Inuit people staking out in-season bitches to be mated by wolves. Whether any of these were accurate is a different matter. Genetically, although Malamutes and Siberian Huskies have been identified as members of a group of 14 "ancient dogs", their DNA shows them to be no more wolflike than Pugs or Chihuahas. Certainly, the Chukchi people would not have been interested in adding to the size of their dogs as they had bred them specifically to be small.
Not only that, but when modern breeders have deliberately bred sled dog to wolf in an attempt to emulate these folk tales, the resulting crossbreeds have in fact been much less effective as sled dogs than the purebred dogs. In particular it is the willingness to pull in harness which had been lost in the cross.

Mick

I think you are very wrong about this!

I agree with you here Gemma!

This dog is also from the north west passage

Ok then out of the 300,000,000 dogs in the world how many do you estimate are genuinely working for a living? Not including Sibes that pull sleds on week-ends as these were made obsolete by snow mobiles. There are guide dogs, police dogs, army dogs etc but these still make up only a small percentage. You could also say that your JRT guards the house etc but genuine working dogs?

Most of these 'tales' originate in the 18th century, but in a different context (i.e. Europe not the Arctic) these 'tales' are also documented by Pliney nearly 2000 years ago. Yes I read the thesis denying the wolf inheritance in sledding dogs as well.

The problem with it is that DNA testing is still only comparative to a sample from a modern wolf of a specific species or sub-species; the court rooms of the USA are always debating this. So it is as yet impossible to determine the origins of dogs and their wolf cousins. Other methods used are comparing skull dimentions, pioneered by prof Iljin in Russia in the late 30s- but it seems that the archaelogical record for Inuit type dogs is too scarce to be really useful.

I would agree that most have found F1 crosses to be intactable as sled dogs but Frank Glaser did sucessfully use them for over a decade and was a reasonably credible witness as a Govt. wolf control officer in Alaska and he also supplied information for government sponsored research.

As for size; the size of wolves varies considerably from region to region; most people just think of big old timberwolves seen in the movies. There is research linking repeated wolf crosses to Laika dogs.

I guess we'll have to wait until DNA analysis is much more sophisticated before we get a definite answer then. To be honest though, it doesn't really concern me one way or another. If there is any wolf in northern breeds, it is so dilute by now as to be pretty insignificant.

Mick

Even so does that make it right to 'create' a breed for no reason other than looks alone and personal preference.

I think you will find that dogs cannot pull sleds 'just at weekends' as otherwise they would not be fit enough. It is a full time job that requires training (through out the week believe it or not!!)
I generally dont travel around by snow mobile either
My dogs are genuine working dogs, so much so that I have actually just quit my career to pursue it more.

What about gundogs, sheepdogs, ratting dogs etc etc

You have a very strange view of 'working'