Non Alsatian/GSD owners, your opinions appreciated please Discussions

The breed standard calls for the withers to be long and high the back (which includes loin)to be not to long between withers and croup, and the croup to be long and angled. The WG lines DO NOT have a 'slant' as you call it as I have shown in my previous photos of my dogs.
I would like to know how many so called responsible breeders in the lines you prefer that do happen to hip score very little else actualy take notice of the scores of not only sire/dam but also of sire/dams sibblings their sire dam etc. so many in those lines do not think twice about using animals for breeding that have extremely high scores or excessively uneven scores.
I didnt fail to recognise him the photo is not him that pic is not Lisa his handler.
You realy think I care what you think when your knowledge on the breed is limited, what I do care about is the miss information you like to give to people.

Yes Patch the evidence is there everyone please look at the corner photo where the words URMA are back to front.
Why would Herr Woerner notice, you realy believe he goes around spending time looking at all the websites that supposedly have pics of his dog, especialy an American site.
And yes I do believe you are rude it is not only me you have done this to but other people on other threads.
The only time Lisa wore blue tracksuit and yellow tshirt was during the progeny parade and her trainers were not that type on that picture, in the Zamb's progeny group there were also 37 other people wearing the same tracksuit bottoms and the same yellow tshirts.
Like I have said before to you and your friend give me evidence/ facts backed up by research then you will have a counter arguement but untill then you do not.
Maybe you wont pm the name of the other dog because it has not been hip and elbow scored.

I dont try and tell people facts that arent true- i am just voicing my opinion and stating FACTS that i know are true- i have seen many gsds having trouble with their hindquaters, mainly types with the weaker back ends...i would like to see proof that proves your statement with regards to cdrm....you are so big on figures- put your money where your mouth is. You will notice i only say what i have seen and know to be true i dont state things that arent true-just say what i have seen.
OH and the dog IS zamp

For all of you that may now be doubting that the picture is of zamp here are some pics of him- these are 100% zamp...

http://www.vom-krafthaus.com/guest/zamp-thermodos.htm

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i.../images?q=zamp+von+thermodos&gbv=2&hl=en&sa=X

and below is a link showing him moving (im 99% sure its him)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QjrA55Yu-Y&feature=PlayList&p=0198DD2D988281F1&playnext=1&index=52

i must say- this dog looks very similar to the original pic!!

The WG line is not weak at the back end grow up, and no the dog is not Zamp, you wasnt at ULm so how would you know.
When you start giving Facts correctly quoted with references then so will I.
I am quite happy to share my knowledge with those that have a true interest in the Health and Welfare of the breed, which you do not. All you do is try to incite arguements about the GSD without the proper knowledge and research to back your claims up. When you and your friend give registered numbers or KC names of both the dog in question on this tthread and the dog in the earlier thread where you told lies about the scores then I may give you some information back, but you wont necessary like the info I give.
Any one else can email me directly.

When you breed for type GSDmad that is what you get I could equally post pics of his progeny that look like him, the links you gave do not proove that the one on the athletic track in the stadium is him, no number, no picture of handler.

I prefer pic A. I'm no expert, in fact I know very little about the breed at all but pic B looks unnatural imo.

*Sigh* That is how it is on the site the pic is from, I reproduced it exactly as it is there, can`t you see that ? I changed nothing about it
Therefore you made a false accusation, you owe me an apology for it.

If the photographer is bothered about pics being used anywhere I would think notice would be taken that it`s the wrong way round on the site where it`s on show but if the photographer is`nt bothered I don`t know why you feel the need to make a song and dance about how it`s been used on the source site

I respond in the manner I am spoken to. You have always been rude to me, you are acidic and sarcastic, you reap what you sew

Take it up with the source site if you think they have posted incorrect photos, according to the photo properties it is Zamp, get over it

You have missed the point of the thread, please do read post one again ;-)

Nope its because I respect the owner, if she want`s specifics posted anywhere or the net she will make that choice, and I would`nt send details to someone demanding them in a throwing-teddies-from-a-pram manner anyway quite frankly.

sorry? lies? how dare you? Just because i will not give my bitch's reg name or number- why would i? what has it got to do with you? i dont say that you are talking b******t because you dont give proof of these facts? There are good and bad breeders of both lines.
that picture that patch posted is exactly as it is on the website it is from. its good to know you know exactly what the handler wears though...how useful

You want prove fine I dont mind:
heres a previous post of yours;
ok-not that this is what this thread is about-my bitchs pedigree-
Sire-born 04-hip-2, elb-0 haem clear./g-sire. born 02-hip-2-elb-1.haem clear/ gg-sire born 99-hip-5 elb-1 haem clear./ggg-sire born 96-hip-4, h clear/gggg-sire hip 2.



NOTE TO ADMIN ANYTHING POSTED FROM HERE ON IS A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD AND CAN BE VERIFIED BY THE KC, for the public you can either view on the online KC data base or go to the KC library and check these details free of charge, or you can purchase the BRS on a regular basis or purchase the information in CD format from the KC.

2004 dogs/bitches with a total score of 4 born in that year with sire/dam results where scored and date of test:
AARONBY ALFHILD KRISTIANA date of test 22/05/2007
score 6/15 21 DOB 30/06/2004 Sex B Sire AARONBY VIVID COLOUR unscored dam AARONBY ISSADORA'S CASCADE unscored

AARONBY AMELIA BLACK JET date of test 16/10/2007
score 8/8 16 DOB 22/07/2004 sex B
Sire BLACK JACK JUNIOR AT AARONBY unscored
Dam SAINTLY GIRL unscored

Litter mates to above:
AARONBY ANCORAH DREAMER date of test 25/11/2005
score 12/7 19 DOB 22/07/2004 sex B
AARONBY ARAMIS BLACK JACK Date of Test 10/10/2007
score 8/8 16 DOB 22/07/2004 sex D


AARONBY BLACK MAGIC date of test 22/05/2007
score 5/5 10 DOB 07/08/2004 sex D
Sire BLACK JACK JUNIOR AT AARONBY unscored
Dam JADES PROMISE unscored

ABSELA ECHO ENDO Date of test 13/06/2005
score 3/6 9 DOB 09/05/2004 sex D
sire AMOR VOM BREIDENBACHER-SCHLOSS (IMP)
dam ABSELA BRON BURRI 6/5 11
litter mate;
ABSELA ENYA ELEISA date of test 13/06/2005
score 7/11 18 DOB 09/05/2004 sex B


ADELWIN DAVITA Date of test 02/06/2005
score16/16 32 DOB 20/03/2004 sex B
sire USHERSBROOK SHIRGAR AT ADELWIN 13/10 23
Dam SHESA LADY AT ADELWIN 11/13 24

ADLERDORF SHIRAZ Date of test 05/06/2007
score 4/12 16 DOB 07/10/2004 sex B
sire BEINHARD TOMMI 3/4 7
dam BEINHARD EYCHA 4/8 12

ADORATA ALEAN date of test 27/09/2005
score 23/9 32 DOB 25/04/2004 sex B
sire TORANAGA TRUE BLUE unscored
dam YARNI RASHKA unscored

AGIOS FANJO AT MYRTOS DAte of test 10/10/2005
score 8/7 15 DOB 09/03/2004 sex D
sire VIDEX DARIUS TWO sz no. 9130112 zw 81 hips a-normal (a1)
Dam AUTARI BRINA 10/14 24

AGIOS LUGER date of test 25/01/2006 score 6/5 11 DOB 07/09/2004 sex D
sire BEINHARD ERON 6/5 11 Dam AGIOS OPIUM 2/5 7

ALBERDALE ISADORA Date of test 30/03/2005
score 15/22 37 DOB 21/02/2004 sex B
sire KELNIK LUCA unscored
dam PETERWELL HAPPY HOOKER OF ALBERDALE 10/10 20

ALEXOBEL LAMAL Date of test 11/11/2005 score 4/9 13 DOB 07/10/2004 sex D
sire KORZWIN VITO 6/3 9 Dam VASHIKA UNIQUE 6/5 11

ALICIA SPARKLING JEM Date of test 26/09/2007
score 3/3 6 DOB 19/08/2004 sex B
sire JASPER ZAMBO unscored
dam RHEMACOURTS GURO unscored

ALTEZZA QUEEN Date of test 23/02/2006 score 8/3 11 DOB 09/12/2004 sex B
sire ON A NIGHT LIKE THIS 5/4 9
Dam CYFAREDD PRIVATE DANCER unscored

AMANZIM TOTI Date of test 09/01/2006 score 32/35 67 DOB 17/05/2004 sex B
sire CAROZAND ENZO 3/7 10
dam DASHING DARK DIAMOND 44/18 62

dogs/bitches born 2004 continued
AMBER OF GLEN GLOLIA Date of test 08/08/2006
score 6/6 12 DOB 10/11/2004 sex B
sire DEEP PRIDE MIT TERANNOS unscored
Dam MOONLIGHT BUTTON unscored

ANDERMA PANASH AT BELLBEAU Date of test 24/05/2005 score 5/8 13 DOB 29/03/2004 sex B
sire URI VOM AMULREE SZ/2024314 HD-Normal
Dam ANDERMA LIBBIE 3/4 7

ANDERMA REMI Date of test 17/11/2005 score 6/4 10 DOB 04/06/2004 sex B
sire FRITZ VOM FARBENSPIEL SZ/2052899 HD-fast Normal Dam ANDERMA HOLLY AT SHERNAA 4/3 7

litter mates to above:
ANDERMA RENA Date of test 27/09/2005 score 7/5 12 DOB 04/06/2004 sex B
ANDERMA RONALDO AT SHERNAA DOB 27/09/2005
score 13/8 21 DOB 04/06/2004 sex D
ANDERMA ROONEY Date of test 01/12/2005
score 8/17 25 DOB 04/06/2004 sex D
ANDERMA ROXI VON SHERNAA Date of test 28/07/2005
score 9/3 12 DOB 04/06/2004 sex B

ANDERMA SASHA Date of test 07/12/2006 score 6/3 9 DOB 02/12/2004 sex B
sire GONZALEZ VON TRONJE (IMP DEU) SZ 2097610 HD a-normal (a1)
Dam ANDERMA HOLLY AT SHERNAA 4/3 7
litter mate
ANDERMA SHELLY Date of test 22/02/2007 score 10/2 12 DOB 02/12/2004 sex B

ANGEL OF THE WEST Date of test 05/04/2005
score 8/13 21 DOB 19/02/2004 sex B
sire WILLING TO PLEASE unscored
Dam ANGEL STARLITE unscored

ANGELDOWNS DASKIA AT MANPOL Date of test 10/10/2006 score 5/3 8 DOB 27/09/2004 sex B
Sire AR JUN VONINA OF LYFAME 4/3 7
dam FORTYACRE CABOCHON unscored

ANGELIC EBONY LADY Date of test 13/02/2006
score 32/35 67 29/06/2004 sex B
sire SAGARO PANCHO 3/6 9
dam SECRET ICE MAIDEN unscored

ANNABEL JOYFUL WHISPER date of test 31/10/2006
score 10/27 37 DOB 01/12/2004 sex B
sire JASUETER BLACK ONYX AT NORWULF 5/7 12
dam CRUYFF MASERATI GHIBLI unscored

ANPO MEYER Date of test 23/11/2005 score 5/8 13
DOB 24/09/2004 sex B
ZENNO VOM HUHNEGRAB (IMP DEU) SZ 2076454 HD a-normal (a1)
Dam CONADREW SPRITZA IN ANPO 8/11 19

ANTILLI XAMBI Date of test 30/03/2005 score 2/2 4 DOB 24/02/2004 sex B
sire VIDEX VARUS SZ/2139965 HD-Normal
Dam VLORI VOM RHEIN-MOSELRING (IMP DEU) 6/5 11
litter mate
ANTILLI XERA Date of test 30/03/2005 score 5/5 10
DOB 24/02/2004 sex B

ARDENBURG URAN Date of test 05/08/2005 score 8/5 13 DOB 31/03/2004 sex D
sire ELAN V.D. HERDERSKRING (IMP NLD) SZ/2103635
HD-Normal
Dam AVINJA'S WISPE 2/7 9

ARDENBURG WISPA Date of test 14/08/2007 score 17/6 23 DOB 18/11/2004 sex B
CHAMP VON DAKOTA (IMP DEU) SZ/2054481 HD-fast Normal
Dam ARDENBURG LOTTIE 8/6 14
litter mate
ARDENBURG WONITA Date of test 12/07/2007 score 4/21 25 1DOB 8/11/2004 sex B

ARDTALAMCU CHITELA OF FIRTHLAR Date of test 27/09/2005 score 5/6 11 DOB 05/08/2004 sex B
sire ECCO VON DER SCHWARZEN NATTER (IMP DEU)
AE0900914 HD-SV: HD a-normal (a1)
Dam ARDTALAMCU METTLE 2/2 4

ARISTIMA BLUE BIRD Date of test 09/06/2006 score3/17 20 DOB 07/11/2004 sex B
Sire WONDERWOOFS ICE BERG OF ARISTIMA 4/3 7
Dam ARISTIMA MISTY BLUE OF LORIJA 9/6 15

ARKASHAN EXECUTIONER Date of test 18/05/2005
score 8/8 16 DOB 06/03/2004 sex D
sire IMMO VOM MONS TABOR (IMP DEU) SZ 2067795 HD a-normal (a1)
Dam LIMASMYTHE RUTLAND REMUS AT ARKASHAN 3/5 8

Dogs/bitches born 2004 cont.
ARMAZI ADELAIDE Date of test 14/12/2007 score 42/44 86 DOB 06/02/2004 sex B
sire SHOTAAN CUBA 5/5 10
dam LORRETTA FROM SHOTAAN 6/5 11
litter mate
ARMAZI AUDI Date of test 16/03/2007 score 6/23 29 DOB 06/02/2004 sex B

ARMINEN ODESSY Date of test 03/03/2008 score 5/3 8 DOB 07/02/2004 sex B
sire ZAMPANO VON OASIS (IMP DEU) SZ/2099743 HD a-fast normal (a2)
Dam SHERRYDALE NICOLE VON ARMINEN 4/4 8
litter mate
ARMINEN OMAMA Date of test 12/09/2005 score 6/3 9 DOB 07/02/2004 sex B
ARNCOURT KAZIMIR Date of test 21/12/2005 score 3/6 9 DOB 10/09/2004 sex D
sire OVERHILL LAZER 6/6 12
Dam ARNCOURT ZARA 8/8 16
litter mate
ARNCOURT KISHO Date of test 12/12/2006 score 6/5 11 DOB 10/09/2004 sex B

ARODENE PAOLA Date of test 22/04/2005 score 14/6 20 DOB 19/02/2004 sex B
sire AMONDAHL NEXUS 4/5 9
dam ARODENE BALMA 4/4 8

ASHMARAI KASSYOPIA Date of test 01/12/2005
score 6/8 14 DOB 22/04/2004 sex B
sire KORZWIN VITO 6/3 9
dam GEESWOOD ATOMIC OF ASHMARAI 4/8 12

ASHPRINGTON THE FARM GIRL Date of test 24/01/2008
score 3/5 8 DOB 14/08/2004 sex B
sire NOVEM QUINN IN NYRVANA unscored
dam ASHPRINGTON RIGHT BACK TO SIMBA 2/2 4

ASHROCK ULTRA Date of test 11/07/2006 score 28/30 58 DOB 04/12/2004 sex B
sire CLOKELLYS TITIAN 4/6 10
Dam MORTOFF YANI 5/7 12
litter mate
ASHROCK UNITA Date of test 21/12/2005 score 14/29 43 DOB 04/12/2004 sex B

ASOKA MADRIGAL Date of test 27/07/2006 score 2/3 5 DOB 12/07/2004 sex B
sire ASOKA JAZZ MAN unscored
Dam ASOKA BLACK JUNI unscored
litter mate
ASOKA MARQUESA OF LLANROSE Date of test 16/01/2007 score 6/4 10 DOB 12/07/2004 sex B

ASPENCOT BLESS MY SOUL Date of test 07/11/2005
score 5/4 9 DOB 23/04/2004 sex B
sire DREAMHUNTER WHITE STORM AT BRIDGEVIEW 4/6 10 dam OUTSTANDING BEAUTY OF ASPENCOT 18/15 33

ASTRAL DANCER Date of test 18/04/2007
score 7/7 14 DOB 25/09/2004 sex B
sire KENZED SAKHAROU unscored
dam GROUND FORCE unscored

AUDIFAX RHAPSODY AT HAZELCOURTS Date of test 11/08/2004 Score 50/50 100 DOB 05/03/2002 sex[ B]B [/B]
sire DANDO VON DIGARAH (IMP DEU) 5/6 11
Dam VOMHAUSNYE FIR 6/6 12

AUDIFAX VISION Date of test 31/08/2005 score 4/7 11 DOB 26/06/2004 sex B
sire KARLO VOM RITTERSEE (IMP DEU) SZ/2069206 HD status unknown
dam SIEGERHAUS SHERA 4/3 7
litter mate
AUDIFAX VIVA Date of test 18/10/2005 score 6/6 12 DOB 26/06/2004 sex B

AUGUSTO GOLD Date of test 15/09/2006 score 8/4 12 DOB 01/08/2004 sex D
sire BAILOTTS PONENTE unscored
dam HEIDI DELIGHT unscored

AVINJA SINDERS Date of test 23/02/2006 score 8/7 15 DOB 31/12/2004 sex B
sire GODALIS FARGO AT AVINJA'S 3/6 9
dam AVINJA'S VANTA 5/5 10

AVINJA'S ROXI Date of test 19/09/2005 score 8/7 15 DOB 01/08/2004 sex B
sire AMONDAHL OBERON AT AVINJA'S 4/4 8
dam CODEL'S JUSTINE 6/5 11

AYLBURTON'S LUCKY STAR Date of test 26/10/2005
score 6/3 9 DOB 01/04/2004 sex B
sire ELMHAUS BRANDON OF BORDERMERE 5/4 9
dam FOREST JEWEL 5/4 9

That concludes all born in 2004 that have been hip scored beginning with the letter A.

Dogs/bitches born 2004 begining with the letter A that have been elbow scored;
Anderma Sasha date of test 07/12/2006 grade 3
DOB 02/12/2004 sex B
sire GONZALEZ VON TRONJE (IMP DEU) elbows DKK 0
dam ANDERMA HOLLY AT SHERNAA
litter mate
Anderma Shelly Date of test 22/07/2007 grade 3
DOB 02/12/2004 sex B

Annabel Joyful Whisper Date of test 31/10/2006 grade 1DOB 01/12/2004 sex B
sire JASUETER BLACK ONYX AT NORWULF
dam CRUYFF MASERATI GHIBLI

Arkashan Executioner Date of test 18/05/2005 grade 0DOB 06/03/2004 sex D
sire IMMO VOM MONS TABOR (IMP DEU)
dam LIMASMYTHE RUTLAND REMUS AT ARKASHAN

Arncourt Kazmir Date of test 12/09/2006 grade 0
DOB 10/09/2004 sex D
sire OVERHILL LAZER
dam ARNCOURT ZARA

I will start letter B tomorrow night

I am an ex owner too, but as everyone is now having a say here goes

out of A and B definitely A, if you include C the choice is a lot tougher

I understand that the KC are revising the breed standard

On their website the standard includes the words
balanced and free from exaggeration

my KC breed standards book quotes
'balanced and free from exaggeration'

my 'This is the German Shepherd' book which I have had since the seventies quotes
'It should both be and appear to be, well balanced with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter'

does dog B fit this ?

Thankyou! and thankyou to everyone who agreed.
He was bred by the Novem kennels who have recently had such bad publicity.
He was by Music man of Novem out of Midross Anna who I believe was born in quaranteen out of a german import bitch.

well people have a long wait if your doing it in alpahbetical order......feel free to show everyone else but you are now on my ignore list cause if i dont i will be end up being banned! you can send an apology when your ready through someone else!

I don't see how posting the hip scores of dogs aged 1-2 years proves the point

she is trying to prove that i lied about the health test results from my bitchs breeding- i have no reason to lie as i do not intend to breed her! and she is also doing it to take the attention away from the other questions asked that she can obviously only answer quoting the breed standard- which in turn does not answer my question.

Well here goes, I'm going to add my two pennies for what it's worth! I've owned just one GSD, he was of Germanic breeding. When we went to visit his litter, my OH asked the breeder about "banana backs" and what she thought. She demonstrated to us three ways of stacking a dog with one of her bitches. First she stacked her in such a way that she appeared to have a very roached back, then she showed us a more middle of the road approach, and finally she stacked her in a more straight backed "English" way. So in other words it is possible to manipulate a dogs appearance in such a way as to make it appear more or less exaggerated.
I'm afraid I have to agree with Pam re. German type GSD's being on average better hip wise than the English type, and this is why I acquired one of largely Germanic breeding. It was definitely easier to locate a good ethical breeder of this type.
I've posted 2 pics of my GSD here taken at the age of 9 years- personally I think he looked great for a dog of his breed at that age. He may not have had the speed of his younger years but he still had a lovely free gallop and was not on any anti-inflammatory medication.

Gorgeous dog too yours is tova, even if he was of germanic breed! Now you all keep banging on about the germanic breed being of better hip scores, and yet my new pup who is apparently english be it working obedience, the dam has a hip score of 2/4 and the sire a hip score of 2/6 and elbow "0", and you can't get a lot better than that can you, so what's the problem????!:?