German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

Unfortunately, the problem with your argument is that the police dogs are almost all German SV derived. Which is why I fall about laughing when I hear the SV people saying how poor the temperament of Alsatians are. The Schutzhund tests encourage aggression in dogs so breeding from those successful lines means that the temperament of those dogs, over time, veered more and more towards aggression. After all - that's what they are rewarded for.

It should be quite clear that the vast majority of dogs today aren't used in the fashion for which they were bred. Most of them are simply kept as pets. Therefore, the function that they need to be fit for is life at 'home'. My dogs aren't aggressive and I'd happily leave them with small children (but I don't). On the other hand they do function as excellent warning dogs and uninvited guests might get a lot more than they bargained for!

Were you watching the same videos as I was.Saw happy wagging tales in all cases. Interesting to see the video of the GSD & the collies working together on that farm.

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Originally Posted by GSD-Sue

Further to Madalaine Pickups remarks I rememer watching Edwin White Spartacist's owner judging & was so surprised by the Germanic dogs he put up I asked him about it & his reply. I judge what is correct I breed & show what is winning. End of quote
Quote alsatianlover
There you have it. There's a circle of breeding rubbish, judges who are breeders then making up the same rubbish and then breeding more rubbish from the dogs they put up. End of quote

Exactly he was breeding & showing to conform to the English Alsatian type that was winning here in England in the 60s/70s but agreed that the SV type dog was the more correct & put up that type when he judged

My Alsatians were owned in the 60s/70s and were from GERMAN stock.

And they were called Alsatians then even on the KC forms and it was around that time that 'Alsatian/GSD' started to be used.

But I was informed way back then that it was more to do with prejudice post war re anything 'German' than to do with anything else.

Only difference I recall in those days was 'short haired' or 'long haired' and I've NO CLUE as to whether there is any credence to this or not but, I was told back then that a 'long coat' is not waterproof?

And told more than once that Alsatians shouldn't have long coats!

Mine didn't. Just back then in the mists of time when I'd refer to a 'long haired' Alsatian, I'd be told by the 'doggy' people 'there was no such thing'!

Bit like now with those who say there is no such thing as a 'teacup' dog.

I'm not talking about the lines I'm talking about the conformation of these dogs in England. Believe me there were different types in the 60s & 70s though most not so polarised. When I showed at Championship shows in those days I took a bag with different collars & leads, We got there early & my handler studied whether the judge liked the dog strung up or natural, walked into stance or moulded, pulling out or moving alongside the handler & my dogs who were trained to perform in different ways with different collars & leads duly looked & performed to that jusges idea of what was correct,
As for long coats I had long coats in my litter in the 50s They would not win at shows but they would not have been barred from showing as they all had double coats. It is the single coated dogs whose coats do not help them in the wet who are no good for herding & so are not acceptable.

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All that is just 'spaghetti' to me my recollections of my GSDs will all be about funny or quirky things they did - how much we loved them - how loyal and faithful and smart they were. None of all that comformation and collars and leads and what different handlers or judges liked or how my dogs 'performed' according to the judges of the day - I never showed my dogs, nor did I go to dog shows, though they had show champions in their pedigree.

I was in Surrey / Hants / Berkshire at the time, and that's where the dogs came from. My dogs were pets and obviously what now seems to be called 'straight backed' but, back then I didn't even hear about straight backs or any other kind of backs or know about any other sort.

I'm not entering into discussion or argument about all this - I am merely relating from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of having owned GSDs and having known others who did (mine came from friends at the Stud who I'd 'dog sat' for in the past).

Just thought it might be interesting for some who hadn't even been BORN when I had mine to hear about stuff from back then.

The first dog show I ever saw was at the Devon County Show many years later. I've never seen so many utterly depressed and bored looking dogs waiting in their cages all day for 'their turn'.

But I had an auntie who showed her Burmese cats and she loved the life (well she actually LIVED for the shows!) and her cats were well cared for.

Giving a differing view does not equate to a difference of opinion - some people who have differing views and/or experiences don't actually HAVE a strong opinion!

Sometimes when I read the minutae of this dog showing stuff I think it is just as well we don't generally 'show' our children lol!

Otherwise we might just forget to enjoy them growing up and just worry about what the trainers and judges of the day thought of them and try to make them comform to that!

The dog was quite obviously happy to be with its owner. Try looking again - particularly round the 1.50-2.00 mark where he talks about 'correcting' the dog. Notice how the tail drops. How is he 'correcting' it? He's not touching it, he's not giving it a command. Perhaps he's giving it an electric shock? There's no 'herding' training there - it's simply a dog running back and forward along an electric fence it can't get through. Let's see what it does without the fence.

That doesn't make sense at all. From the quote he breeds type A and shows type A and then judges type A to be winners. How you get anything else from that I'm afraid defeats all logic. Are you seriously suggesting that - as a judge - he'd be breeding dogs that weren't going to win? Utter nonsense.

And the GSDs that were Crufts Best in Show during that period were Alsatian - NOT German SV - types. But you ignore the facts. Even the Siegers up until the early 70s were 'Alsatian' type - not the crippled SV types that exist now. (Which means your quote above makes even less sense). Have a look at them here.

Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Gwen Barrington as having 'German' dogs which herded sheep. Here's a link to her 'Brittas' kennel dogs. Please point out those which a) don't have a straight back and b) are down on their hocks. Then point out those that appear similar to today's Alsatians. (Hint, zero in a and b, all in the 2nd part). The other kennel while Mrs Barrington was using her dogs to herd was the Letton kennel of Mrs Beck. Both herded sheep and cattle. Both had, and bred, dogs which are identical to today's 'Alsatians'. None of them even remotely resemble today's SV types.

Have you ever met a VPG trained/bred dog ??? The protection phrase is not aggression, a truly aggressive dog would fail both as a police dog & as a VPG dog.

All protection work for VPG(Vielseitigkeitsprufung fur Gebrauchshunde-Versatility Test for Working Dogs)is not just getting your dog to bite someone, the focus is on control of the dog's work drive. The"bite"isn't directed to the person it is to the sleeve. The dog must come off the sleeve on command & not as is seen in some Service dog trials with the dog being physically removed from the person. If a dog fails to come on on command it fails the whole test-as simple as that.

The whole aim of VPG is for the handler & dog to work as one & for the dog to be completely under control at all times.

The temperament of the VPG dog has to be 110 % the VPG temperament test is very strict-any show of fear or aggression & again the dog fails

The AD test(Endurance test)is a test of fitness & construction &most of the show GSDs would fail no matter which side of the divide they come from. The AD test should be mandatory for all GSDs

Very interesting hearing about the dogs back in the 60s/70s and the slight differences in opinion back then.

My sister worked (first as a Saturday job while still at school and then full time) at a breeding/boarding kennels with various breeds including GSDs in the 1980s and from my recollection (I used to go up and walk some of the dogs at weekends). They were the old fashioned "Alsatian" type. For anyone who remembers show dogs back then, it was Pat Jones at Wellknowe Kennels. My memories are also a bit hazy (as I was only around 11 or 12 years at the time) but they were lovely looking dogs (probably wouldn't be my type today though) with fantastic temperaments. We would walk two or three each at a time (and we were only young girls), and I distinctly remember a time that three of us attended Cartmel Races with two GSDs each in tow, and they were perfectly behaved.

You did see longhaired GSDs around back then, but where I lived (small town in the Lake District) they were not all that common (I do remember two though). I was always interested in the breed from an early age (also thanks to Joyce Stranger) so never thought of the two as different breeds - just longhaired and shorthaired "Alsatians" as we knew them back then. The longhairs are frowned upon by the show folk as many do not have the thick undercoat that protects the body from the elements.

Absolutely - and I really enjoyed hearing about your dogs. Do you have any old pics you could scan?

I mentioned Gwen Barringtons Brittas dogs as I had the pleasure to be owned by one, chosen for the temperament & character & not looks I must add, in a time when the Alsatian temperament was so bad the breed standard had to be revised to cover up this worst of all faults, the notorious"Noted suspicion of strangers"clause that some Alsatian breeders still breed to

All the Crufts BIS "Alsatians"all had faulty construction having weak toplines,long coupled, over angualtions & 2 had the most awful temperaments & total lack of character. Worst of all one was by a known epileptic Vondaun Quadrille of Eveley. This dog is behind so very many of today's Alsatians with many having over 30 lines to him & then the breeders wonder why they are producing epileptic puppies ??

Interestingly the most currently successful at Gen Chamionship show level in groups & BIS is er a German import dog !!!

Please feel free to name them.

ROFL. What drivel. They all had good toplines - unlike Elmo who has a distinct roachback. And, once again, please provide evidence of 'breeders who produce epileptic puppies'. This is an old, old slur which has no basis of fact now.

And, equally interesting is the fact that he comes from one of those 'monied' German SV kennels. And, with the judging bias for Germanic types it's not surprising he's winning. But his hocks - as seen in the Crufts TV programme - are very, very poor and he has a roach back that's so awful it's rare to find a photo of him in show stance. Almost all the photos of him are head on. Why is that? Every other champ dog is normally photographed from the side.

And I've seen him placed below other dogs in shows where the judge adhered to the standard, rather than perceived fashion.

Let's be 110% clear. If the person isn't wearing a protective sleeve the dog will bite the arm. No question. The sleeve is purely for protection - in the same way that full padded suits are sold to some Schutzhund trainers - because the dog isn't going to worry about what the person its biting is wearing. Or perhaps you think that if a dog, trained as you suggest, having been ordered to attack will stop and say - "I think that chap with a knife who is attacking my owner hasn't got a sleeve on - so I'll leave him alone!" It's one of the biggest lies about Schutzhund. (Either that or there are a load of deluded owners).

What do you mean by temperament? Where's anything about being able to socially interact with people?

You show complete ignorance of the reality of today's world. Most GSDs aren't kept for working. Most are kept as family pets. The AD test is simply part of a 'sport' test that is now so meaningless to GSDs as to be worthless. Or perhaps you weren't listening when it got taken over by the FCI and they opened it up to other breeds?

By all means go out and play with your dogs in a totally unrealistic way but get a grip on the real world, where Schutzhund is irrelevant. (Except, of course, in Germany where it's totally driven by big profits).

Gwen Barringtons dogs were not the Alsatian type they had shorter coupling & were far firmer in topline than the majority of show dogs in that era,

They certainly were as was my bitch.

The name of the epileptic sire was of course Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley I would have thought an Alsatianist would have jumped on that !!!!

Please point out which of these 3 has a correct straight topline

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They all have a dip behind the withers

Just out of interest, does anyone who was into show GSDs/Alsatians back in the 1980s, have any photos of Pat Jones of Wellknowe Kennels' dogs? And could you tell me whether they were the GSD or Alsatian type? I *think* they were Alsatians, but it would be interesting to have it confirmed.

Well, you certainly know your stuff - NOT. Indeed, Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley was known to carry epilepsy - but then his lines go back to Avon Prince of Alumvale - who was also known to be epileptic. Avon Prince was inbred 2/3 on Ingosohn of Erol (1938-51) who was son of Ingo v Piastendamm (b1934) who is found behind many of Germany's 'best' lines.

And it isn't - as you ought to know - an 'Alsatian' problem. It's a prevalent problem in GSDs from all over the world. Indeed, the GSD Breed Council tried to start a study on this a few years ago - rumour has it they folded it because of the number of German SV imports that had epilepsy. It's also a fact (I know you hate facts rather than your opinion) that there are many, many dogs who have Quadrille in their pedigree that have no sign of epilepsy. It's further a fact that something like an average of 3% of ALL dog breeds suffer from epilepsy - and, although you don't want to hear it, it's also a fact that what may be seen as epileptic behaviour is quite often linked to stress in dogs.

Even Malcolm Willis (who is hardly unbiased) said "Most long distance descendants of Quadrille will not carry a single gene from him at all." Putting it another way - this is a scare story with no substance. In fact Willis also said that he knew of only one dog that had sired fitters - and that was back in 1997. But then - what does the veterinary profession or the most well known breed geneticist know in the face of your expertise?

I'll quote what was said on another forum: "The spinal column is S shaped and this dip is a normal part of canine construction. It's where the spinous processes of the vertebrae change direction from thoracic to lumbar. Most breeds have this dip, it can be felt most easily in breeds of relatively normal construction like Siberians, Canaan Dogs, Collies etc."

Now let's have a look at a German SV dog



You'll notice the hinge back? A complete absence of straight topline (as per EVERY worldwide standard)? You'll notice the angle of croup? Where specified (e.g. SV) that's supposed to be 23 degrees - here it's approximately 40.

Now, how, exactly did that dog win at Crufts when he is so obviously way off the standard? Please don't tell me that the rest were even more awful!

Oh dear so you are a Malcolm Willis devotee :-(

Did you know that MW appeared in court in a civil action to argue for the plaintiffs against a breeder/stud dog owner & stated that HD is totally genetic ???????

For the first time in his career as a genetist he was on the losing side as his claim was disproved by a better qualified witness.

So as you appear to base all your genetic beliefs on MW statements & theories-oops is all I can write.

MW was not a neurologist neither was he medically qualified to be quoted about epilpesy. There is no genetic test yet for epilepsy so what exactly he could have proved about the genes from Quadrille was 0.

From a short relationship with the breed starting in 1956 when my father bought a multiple lines to Avon Prince bitch & ending 4 years ago with the death of our last GSD(this I understand means I have little knowledge of the breed)I am well aware of of the epilepsy in the breed. I know Avon Prince's pedigree & know that Erol is one of the sources of inherited epilepsy in GSDs. Unfortunately just because he & Avon Prince are off the very short pedigrees today those who line/inbreed to these dogs & their offspring have more chance of having epilpetic dogs coming from their litters & this if the pedigrees are researched is proven.

As for Elmo(I presume you hold the copyright over the photograph you used, when did you take it ?)he is not a dog I would own nor would I want a GSD from as I much prefer the working VPG dogs, despite the fact that you believe that all the German dogs are the source of all aggression in GSDs)

When have you seen this outright aggression in VPG dogs ? By personal contact ? by video evidence of unprovoked attacks or court prosecutions ??

If aggression only comes from VPG line dogs why did my father's bitch have to be PTS for multiple unprovoked attacks way back in 1960 & she had no pure VPG dogs in her breeding only show dogs ? A local breeder of Alsatians(who may or may not still be alive)bred dogs that were known to be very aggressive & her top winning dog was ordered to be put down for a very savage unprovoked attack on a passer by whilst being exercised on lead ! There were only generations of UK Alsatians in his pedigree, just as there were behind a bitch called Revondo Barbarella(sp)who actually attacked a judge in the ring(which I witnessed so no heresay)& bit him.

Aside from the arguing about whos lines or knowladge is correct
I have to say that I dont like the look of any of the dogs on this page, the extreams of either side are wrong

I really wish instead of everyone arguing that one line is more correct than the other everyone would just sort themselves out and sort the breed out short legs are not correct, bent backs are not correct, wobbly hocks are not correct, strange angles are not correct, bad tempraments are not correct, inbreeding is not correct

Point scoring does not help the dogs

I have to agree. It seems complete madness to me!

What I don`t understand is why some people continue to call the GSD "Alsatians":?

Regardless of what it correct :? surely they are all GSD`S :?