German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

Sorry I've not been around much, trying to get my head together after losing 3 cats in the last 2 months. 2 to the road and 1 to an unknown disease

Right - I can't quite remember all the points everyone made but I'll pick up on a couple.

Working kennels are breeding towards a correct topline and better rear angulation.
Many WGSL dogs work sheep in Germany.
I have seen a few people converted after attending a German style show, from thinking they're all half frogs to realising they can all walk perfectly well, can gait beautifully and can also run, with good temperaments. Unlike the quivering messes the Alsatians are.

I know people with WGSL dogs that do agility. My own dog can keep up with his sprint type husky girlfriend.

Previous working type dogs with incorrect topline and rear angulation could not gait efficiently. German style dogs can both gait for herding and do Schutzhund work. German dogs are only lacking in drive for work, and not all of them at that.

Would also like to point out that A LOT of WGSL breeders and exhibitors don't like Elmo, he doesn't do well in Germany.

There were alsatians at crufts, they were disgusting.
The quality of German entries wasn't good. There were a few good kennels there but also some really really horrible German dogs with loose hocks and "hinged" backs.

I too hope for a split breed.

That isn't even a bad alsatian lmao.

Because there are two quite distinct conformations of dog under the same name. Because there is a bias in judging where the judges will only award to dogs of the 'type' they prefer. (In particular the 'Germanic' judges don't judge to the breed standard which specifies a straight back, although both sides ignore certain faults in their own types).

Both 'sides' accept this - and both sides are at each others throats about it. Each claims that they are 'right'. Yet, they do so without reference to the facts about the current breed shapes, which, basically, boils down to mistaken 'improvements' by vested interests in Germany in the latter part of the 20th century. The 'Germanic' supporters say that they are right because they follow the style of dog now prevalent in Germany. The 'English' supporters say that the shape of the dog they have is much truer to the pre-1970s shape which had been unchanged for 40 odd years.

They don't agree. A well known judge has said that he wouldn't rest until the 'Alsatians' were completely 'stamped out'. The Kennel Club's health check is aimed squarely at the 'Germanic' type of dog.

It makes sense to split the breed. A similar thing was imposed on Akitas by the FCI some years ago. Why not GSDs?

There's an unbiased opinion. None of my dogs are 'quivering messes'. OTOH they aren't uncontrollable, vicious or unsocialised like many Germanics I've seen.

And do, please, tell me which Alsatians were at Crufts. None that I know of - and I probably know all the Alsatian breeders of note. None of them entered this year because they knew the bias of the judge.

AlsatianLover - would you share some of your dogs photos with us? I haven't seen an "Alsatian" type of dog since the 1980s (in the flesh), and would be very interested to see how they compare to the other "types" around.

Thanks.

I understand there are two factions, I just don't understand why

One standard, why the diffferences in the dogs

And I totally disagree with creating another new breed just because people can't agree

Which of the dogs can do its job with sheep?

I take it the fact you didn't reply to any of my other points is agreeing I'm correct?

Ben McFuzzylugs - the German show type DO work sheep in practice.

The Alsatians do nothing.

Yes the KC spend so much time watching hocks they forgot to do anything about the disgusting state Of hip and elbow scores, or lack of, in their beloved Alsatians.

The German type breeders think our type is correct because they can work. Alsatians aim for nothing but to look vaguely like the original mutts. Which they look nothing like anyway. They have far shorter legs, are far heavier, pigeon chested and from the WITHERS still don't even have a straight back.

I'm afraid your ignorance is showing. I know of Alsatians working sheep in Wales. And the owner is quite blunt - his opinion is that the Germanic dog couldn't even run to the far end of his hillside, let alone herd sheep on it.

The ONLY reason German breeders think their type is correct is because they've been brainwashed by the big-money breeders in Germany.

If the German shape is correct why wasn't it correct for von Stephanitz? Why wasn't it correct from 1925 to 1975? Why did it suddenly become 'correct' when 2 German brothers, with their own large kennels, took over and ran the breed in Germany from the 1970s to the 1990s? If the Alsatian looks like the original dogs that existed from 1925-1975 then they must be right. Or, from somewhere, there are a load of people who know better than those who bred the dogs to a standard for 50 years! (I don't think so).

Which part of ANY breed standard, FCI, AKC, KC, Canadian KC, etc. says that the dog should have a curved back? ALL of them say straight topline, slightly sloping. That alone makes every Germanic dog a failure in terms of its own breed standard. Yet they win at shows! Why? Because of the vast amount of money poured in to the breed in Germany to ensure massive profits for the top German Kennels. (This is all well documented - but it's largely in German).

I refer you back to the animation on page 14 of this thread. It clearly shows what has happened to the breed and shows what would have happened to a horse if it had had the same sort of ridiculous change. Or perhaps you think that's desirable?

From a simple bio-engineering view the idea that the Germanic dog has more 'drive' because of its back leg shape is simply wrong. The ONLY reason the current GSDs are like that is an attempt to follow the Germans - under the misapprehension that their current breeding is correct. Yet the vast majority of GSDs exist outside Germany - and most look nothing like the 'Germans'. And, if it is so right, why is there now another national club in Germany set up specifically to address these breed problems?

One thing is for sure - you have your point of view and I have mine. We aren't going to agree. And that's the underlying point. There are 2 different shaped dogs - and for me that's the same as saying there are different Belgian shepherds (which are all genetically identical). Yet there are 3 'types' of Belgian shepherd. The only way this can ever be resolved is to split the breed.

Please do provide pictures of the alsatians working sheep in wales!!

How on earth do they look anything like the original mutts?

And it took time to breed towards a better dog.

v Stephantiz's dogs were starting points, not perfection.

A horse is not a domestic dog, it is completely irrelevant :?

Why do Alsatianists refuse to health test? Or when they do breed from dogs with elbow grades of 3?

So if there is a split what will the working line dogs become? and the police dogs?

as far as I can see the extreams on both sides are not good

and really it just sounds like a farce

Alsatianlover, maybe the temps of your dogs are different but the ones in my area are fear aggressive, including the grson of the US import my friend who owns this dog thougt it was something se had done utill I assessed the sire at Crufts the other year who jumped when I dropped my bag on the floor and flinched when I ran my hand down his back.
The only poor temps I see apart from the English are in the Germanic/middle of the road type (crosses of German & English) not from pure WGSL, plus some cross working line, I attended Bolton show the only one which showed any sign of aggression (tail high above the back) was not German, another friend who had only met mine believed all the media hype and bull thats spread around untill she came to Bolton with me and met all the friendly sociable dogs there.
Unfortunately I live in an area where most dogs are from either English show lines or poor pet breeding so GSDs have a bad rep around here, yet mine can go anywhere including acute psych wards, I have kids running out of the school yard to meet them, he is a blood donor, a stooge dog for socialising nervous/aggressive dogs and pups.
I agree on your point about extremes in all types, hopefully yours arent the extreme English show type but more like the Gregrise type of old rather than the Lornaville type.

Photographs please or the name of the shepherd.

It isn't legal to allow GSDs to work sheep in the way they were developed to work them here in the UK.

The German Shepherd was developed to take a flock to pasture from the shepherd's home pasture on rotation. The sheep are herded to one end of the pasture & the human Shepherd then walks a line across the pasture over which the sheep are not to move. The GSD is then left alone in the pasture to patrol the line until the human shepherd returns. This would not be legal in the UK in case a person trespassed into the pasture & was detained by the dog.

British sheep breeds especially the hill breeds don't flock the same way the continental breeds do & so using a GSD to work UK sheep breeds here in the UK would be a waste of time.

The GSD's strength in sheep working is their ability to patrol the grazing line tirelessly & their on road driving ability-two strengths rarely used in the UK.

FYI this is not my opinion, but that of UK & German sheep farmers & human shepherds.

I, of course, have no opinion/knowledge of the forms of GSD sheep working as I currently do not own a GSD, but have done so in the past, meaning opinion/knowledge is not relevant nor current

Absolutely spot on. I have considered a few times attempting to work my GSDs on our sheep - however, as you rightly say, it would be a waste of time, as they just wouldn't be able to control our hill sheep and it would more than likely just bring out their prey drive to chase/attack, rather than to patrol.

I don't have pictures, they aren't my dogs. What they look like is a proper non-deformed German Shepherd. Exactly like the ones that won at Crufts many years ago. Exactly like the ones that were perfectly 'right' until the money people in Germany screwed them up.

Absolute rubbish. It took about 50 years from 1925-1970s for there to be no discernible change AT ALL. Do your homework. Look at pictures of every year's Siegers.

I'm so glad you are here to enlighten us - knowing much more about the breed that the man who founded it, corrected the dog shape when it was going wrong and looked after it until his death - even in the face of the Nazi party. You are really someone whose pearls of wisdom lighten my day.

No it isn't. It illustrates the same stupid deformation that has been applied to the dog. It's exactly why the Kennel Club are all over the Germanic dogs - because most of them are crippled frogs. Tell me, when are the Germans going to introduce health tests that specifically address the main health issuers with the current breed - topline and hindquarters? These have nothing - at all - to do with hips and elbows. But it's apparently OK for the Germanic type to cripple dogs (Hence - frogs legs) while wittering on about the KC not letting them double handle and pretending that it's tied up with health!!! (That's what the GSD Council put in their questionnaire).

I have no idea where you get your information from. All the breeders I know health test. Or perhaps you are still stuck in the 1980s/90s? The National GSD Club even makes membership for breeders mandatory on health testing.

Get your head round the fact that the health tests you are so proud of do NOTHING to address the conformation problems of Germanic dos - which are topline fault and lousy hocks. If those frogs can run at all it's a miracle. And even the wonderful Elmo wasn't doing much in the way of setting things to rights at Crufts. His hocks were all over the place.

Surely if you health test your dogs, you would also be proud ??

I always thought "Alsation" was a name given to the GSD after the war, due to its link with Germany, and nothing to do with conformation...as you say in your other thread.


Alsation being the old name for the old fashioned upright German Shepherd)

Interesting. Worth ploughing through this somewhat emotional thread for.
As someone who only has rescues, the dogs I and most other companion dog owners have are mixtures of lines I suspect. These exaggerated lines I`ve only seen in shows.
What `type` do the police use? They seem to be a fair mixture.

Always wondered if they were one and the same dog

It depends on whether or not the Police have bought, bred or gifted dogs.

Bought are 99% from working line continental kennels already trained(this is what our local force does), bred they are now using working line sires or their own dogs, gifted dogs are now quite few & far between & they can range from working line to Alsatian in type. Many gifted dogs get rejected because of poor hips, poor temperament & lack of work drive.

The name Alsatian comes from just after WWI(not WWII as many thing)the hatred of all things Germany was far greater after WWI than WWII. Col Baldwin & others formed a club in around 1918/1919 & the KC & the club opted to reregister the breed Alsatian Wolf Dog as Col Baldwin had seen some GSDS in Alsace Lorraine & Wolf Dog because of the alleged look of wolf of the dogs. The GSD was never used in Alsace Lorraine to work sheep & originated from more Northern Germany. The KC realised using the word Wolf Dog wasn't a good idea & this was dropped. The name Alsatian became the secondary name for the breed in 1977 & was eventually dropped altogether in 2010

The correct name for the breed is & always has been Deutscher Schäferhund & those who dislike this should really either develop a breed of their own or choose another breed

How would you do this divide as apart fronm the extremes most litters would have dogs who fitted the other catagory? I onced judged a dog I considered a really good show specimen & asked her if she had papers & showed at other levels. She replied he was KC registered but the breeder had told her he was not correct & only to be a pet. When I saw the pedigree I was amazed as this dog's breeder was one of the most English alsatian breeders you could imagine & this dog was really Germanic.
In the eighties I owned & showed a bitch who did all her winning on the Germanic side, including a reserve ticket but her breeding was double Spartacist, & yet she had not only a different conformation but also a great temperament.
As for health issues even my bitch with the slightly overlong rear pasterns is as fit as my bitch I showed in the 50's Indeed fitter in one respect as my bitch in the 50s lost her top line after having a litter as her back was not as strong. I have owned & shown dogs from the 50's till a short time ago when my ill health curtailed the breeding & showing side though I am still owned by two a West German show line bitch & a ???back yard breeder rescue dog. I have seen the dogs evolve, & I much prefer the modern Germanic type but even if I didn't I would respect that they wee a GERMAN dog & therfore the German dog was correct. Its like someone in another country changing the conformation of a British dog such as the bearded collie & claiming their version was the correct one.

I find all the GSD threads fascinating.

It's agreed that the dogs orgin was in Germany. From posts above the dog was relatively unchanged until the 1970's when for want of a better word the dog was changed for what appears to be "fashion", not for function.

I've yet to read an explanation of why the gsd changed, as the animation many posts back shows, why it was introduced and accepted, and that actually convinces me that it was the correct way to take the GSD. If the original dogs did not need that conformation, why did the dogs of the 1970's need it.

I don't read the thread as saying that the English dogs are perfect, just that to the average person they have seen less alteration over the years than the German dogs, in particular the SL.

I wouldn't welcome a split breed though. I would like to see healthy dogs that are more like dogs of old. How that can ever be achieved, i don't know. Everyone is convinced they are right

BYB rescue owner btw