German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

I read moobli's post as quite different:as in all posters comments are welcomed, regardless of whether they own a particular breed or not?

Sounds like this is the reason behind your opinion.......

I also read it as everyone is free to an opinion, regardless of whether they have owned a GSD or not. And quite rightly so!

??? the reason I don't like "Alsatians" !!

I don't like any dog that has a bad temperament or that is poorly bred regardless of breed or non breed.

I chose when I was 6 to save up & buy an all German GSD-took me 2 years & she came from two imported GSDs belonging to Gwen Barrington(Brittas)why? because I wanted a GSD not an "Alsatian" I was well aware of all the problems bred into the UK dogs at a very early age

A breeder sold you a dog when you were only eight years old?!?!?! Aren't there laws against this??!

I am writing of 1958 here not a couple of years ago

Why should there have been, I had my parents back up & we had all met the breeder several times at shows before I got my puppy. The breeder had seen me showing other people's dogs & also seen me training dogs for obedience

Unlike any problems bred into German dogs? So much so that there is now an alternative breed club in Germany for the GSD? There is ample evidence that the shape of the 'modern' SV dog is down to breeding from mass kennels - puppy farms if you prefer to call them that. As you may (or may not) know the SV only allows a limited number of puppies to be registered every year from any one kennel. They have a distinct bar on 'commercial' breeders (unlike our own, much loved (?), Kennel Club).

So the puppy farmers (who are represented at the top of the SV) set up 'affiliate' kennels with names almost, but not quite, identical to the 'main' kennel. They churn out around 150 puppies per year. They use a limited number of 'high-scoring' studs but most bitches are having 2 litters a year.

In practice, what does this mean? Firstly, those dogs are being sold for huge amounts - particularly to China. Secondly, an analysis of hip scores registered at the SV show no discernible improvement in GSDs in Germany in the past 25 years. Thirdly, there is evidence of some outstanding fraud going on with stud dogs being tested more than once and with false scores being registered at the SV. This goes right to the top.

It's all about money - and it does nothing, absolutely nothing, for the health of the dog. Going back to the animations I posted earlier - can you tell me that the deformation of the skeleton to the modern dog is an improvement? Would anyone accept that horses would be deformed in the same way? And why, if the upright GSD in that animation is the copy of the judges scorecard in the DDR isn't the GSD judged according to that?

The modern (Martin) GSD is simply an "Emporer's New Clothes" syndrome. There isn't a shred of evidence that the bending the back and stretching out the hip joint has made the dog more 'fit for purpose'. In fact, the opposite is true - which is one reason that the German Police are slowly dropping the GSD in favour of the Mallinois.

But please don't let cold hard facts get in the way of opinion.

this is good enough for me. my Jeager. whats wrong with that?

this is as "showy" as they need to be!

Nothing - if you like your dog, you like your dog. However, individual dogs and individual photos mean very little in the overall state of the GSD.

The Crufts GSD winner this year (and last) simply doesn't meet the KC standard - but he does meet the 'fashion' that modern GSD breeders have convinced themselves is correct. He doesn't even meet the FCI standard, which is pretty incredible. But all GSD breeders knew that the Crufts judge this year favoured the German type of dog - which is why there weren't any Alsatian types there. Why waste money on an entry fee when you know that the judge won't be judging to the breed standard?

The undeniable fact is that there is a problem in conformation in the Martin type dog. The instruction to the examining vet at Crufts says: "There is much controversy about the hindquarter conformation of the GSD. Principally the issue is conformational problems with cow hocks and weakness (instability) in the hind limbs when moving."

I read that as saying "we are too frightened to do anything about refining the shape by insisting that judges judge to standard and we're going to try and get you to do it for us". The GSD Breed Council still refuses to admit the problem and harp on about their insistence on hip scoring etc. But they won't address roach backs and they won't address hocks. In fact they sent out a 'health' questionnaire where 2 of the questions were about double-handling. The 2 questions about hindquarters and roachbacks were basically the same question repeated. They have no interest at all in promoting health, other than the things that they have to do for the SV - but they do have a massive monetary interest in promoting dogs that follow the SV 'look'.

The Kennel Club won't do anything about it because if the 'German' clubs go off and do their own thing (perhaps by setting up an English registry for GSDs) they will lose registration revenue. Last year there were about 9000 GSD registrations. That's a huge drop from 14000 6 years ago but even so, it's a big pile of money.

I fail to understand, when the majority of Germanic/English type owners disagree so much, why a breed split isn't a good idea. People say "we don't like your type of dog" when referring to the "other" type but seem to want to keep them all as one breed. Can someone explain why?

Their 'newer' purpose? Would that be the same purpose that von Stephanitz suggested them for pre WW1? How is that 'new'?

er - what standard are 'working kennels' breeding towards? And, if there is no health problem caused by the SV conformation why do the Kennel Club insist there is? No, let me correct that, why does the European Union say there is? Perhaps all the experts that know about these things from a medical point of view ought to defer to the big money people in the SV?

The SV show type isn't 'fit for purpose' at all - unless it's purpose is to stand in a ring and be judged by people who think that it's somehow 'correct'. If you put one of those in a field with a herd of sheep it would probably turn tail and run away - and the sheep would probably catch it.

Hey - just hang on a sec! No-one said you couldn't have an opinion. I was merely trying to point out that just because Ben McFuzzylugs doesn't own GSD, doesn't mean she can't have an interest in the breed. Surely that is reasonable? That is merely what I was trying to point out.

You clearly have plenty of knowledge and experience with GSDs, so please continue to let us benefit from that.

Thanks Dolce - that is precisely what I meant

Thankyou, yes I read it as you saying that anyone could have an oppinion

I think a person does not have to be an expert on a breed to see when something is clearly not right. I have never met an mastif in my life - but I know having lower eyelids sagging 1/2 way down their face is not a good thing

I think people get a bit to wrapped up in breeds and forget they are dogs first and foremost
and dogs should be able to stand, walk, run, jump, breath, see and hear free from pain
regardless of what the standard says for the breed

sorry,my post was meant to be for the benefit of j, uk!
i actually agree with your opinions. ( read some of my threads, and you will see.) MVS, saw all of the problems coming. thats why a group of his society split from him; to develop the show line, against his wishes. It is absolutely wrong for "our favourite dog" to be like that. It shouldn't be able to be called a German Shepherd Dog! if we read what MVS wrote, we would see that! keep it going,. I'm with you!!

I fully agree. I've read and re-read his book and I've looked at the dogs he wanted in the breed - to the extent of choosing the 1925 Sieger to be different to those that went before - and I simply can't understand how anyone can even remotely think that the 'Martin' style of dog is anything like a German Shepherd is supposed to be.

But I really, really have a problem with people who acknowledge the difference (from whichever side of the fence) and yet fight to keep it as all one breed. Is there anyone who can throw any light on that?

Just catching up not read all the new posts yet- I for one would rather the Alsatian was registered as a different breed
re Alsatian type not being at Crufts this year I cant comment as I wasnt there but it hasnt stopped them going other years

re stud books being open I know the Czech & DDR didnt close untill sometime after 1932 as they were still crossing GSDs with the native herding breed of Czech maybe you know the exact year?

One day we'll get a split breed (I hope ;-) )

I know that there were a lot of Alsatian people went to last year's (2011) Crufts simply to wave the flag. They knew that Gary Gray wouldn't award anything to the Alsatian type but wanted to make the point that there are still lots of traditional types out there.

2013 - the judge is an 'Alsatian' type (or has been in the past) but the lack of CCs this year and the total imposition of Germanic judges in all shows where one could qualify for Crufts during 2012 makes it a laughing stock. I know of one breeder who went to a show to try and qualify and there were 3 other dogs in his class. They were all Germanic. He didn't even bother going in the ring - just turned around and went home.

The situation is bonkers.

Sheep working German Bitch stood naturally

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Alsatian dog

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Which is correct ?? No comment from me

People want there to be a split into 2 different breeds?
Really? Why?