German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

I am 'so irate' about Gsds because it is a breed I have always loved being turned into an animal who can barely stand and walk at the expense of being able to do a different speed

And I don't get why if you agree you don't like the way the show lines are going why every post I make you jump on and defend them

I don't comment on the other type simply because I don't see them, all you see are the frog dogs, or some lovely working and pet dogs as seen on this forum

Btw saying qed dosent make something so
Where is the actual evidence that the dogs moving like this is more efficient than how other Gsds, dogs and wolves move, and if this is the case why have the dogs only started looking like this in the past 20 years?
What are your qualifications to asses the energy used in a certain gait? What papers have been published on it?

I really don't think you need to own a breed to admire, respect and be interested in it. In fact, Dyane - you haven't owned a GSD for the past few years either, so I really don't see what that bearing has on this discussion.

Blimey, these threads never quite seem to disappear do they . You know what? I have come to the conclusion that I like a straight back dog, I dislike the show world dogs who look strange, and there will be no changing my mind on it, as I'm suspecting there will be no changing the mind of the show lovers But hey ho, each to their own. I have absolutely NO IDEA what Ranger is, whether from SL, WL, alsation or from blooming mars, but he's MY dog, I love him and how he looks and at the end of the day that's all that matters (but of course as he's from a BYB my opinion probably doesn't count LOL!!)

Well see the thing here is that, it doesn't matter what we "like" - what does matter is what is fit for function, and what is healthy. And the many WGSL dogs that are actually working at herding in Germany does speak volumes. However, working line dogs cannot do that.. I was looking forward to that video of Zak gaiting but you deleted me off facebook

I'm sure when the police breed/select GSDs for their particular function they ain't thinking of their ability to herd sheep...........the "working" requirements of many dogs have evolved since they were first developed as a breed.

Indeed. I have no issue with working GSDs, I like them. Their conformation suits their newer purpose, security etc.
The show type conformation is to suit perimeter herding.
There are no health conditions caused by the conformation - otherwise working kennels wouldn't be breeding towards the standard now...

so why would it matter whether a WL dog gaits or not, if there is no requirement for it in their "purpose"?

Because people have been saying that they think WL are correct and WGSL aren't lol.

Surely what's "correct" in anything is purely someone's opinion and not an actual fact? I would assume it was differences in opinions and not facts that have generated the splits within the breed in the first place....

isnt it the SL dogs that have shown the greatest change? Seems logical to assume that the non-corrupted WL dogs are in fact truer to the original.

Which original are we talking about here? One particular dog or a group of dogs? Because they were already breeding out the dip behind the withers and breeding in a sloping topline.

It very much depends on what that function is, surely. The police/services (which account for the vast majority of true working dogs (and not sport dogs) in this country) choose, in the main, the working line bred dogs for their purpose (when they have a choice and funds anyway).

I haven't yet taken a video of Zak, but am happy to, when I have a willing person to hold the camera .... Jet&Copper I am looking at you here ;-)

And the reason for the deletion from (t'other site) was mainly due to lots of bad language on your page, which doesn't appeal to me personally ... no offence

Who are these "people"?

Yes good point, although some people seem to think these things are fact when actually there are very few actual scientific facts about dog breeding at all

messed up the multiquote thing cos Im on my phone here but I also wanted to add
about the origin of the breed
While the founder was still alive and still 'creating' the breed he was pushing them to the police and army, so although we call them shephard dogs actually they have been multi purpose from the start really so this magical gaiting should not be at the expense of the other abilities like walking and standing that a police dog would need

But what I still don't understand is that if there are no health issues caused by the WGSL GSDs conformation then why did
the Bateson Inquiry single out the GSD as an example of a breed ‘where drastic action is required’ to address conformation and movement??

Writing in 1929 MvS said:

My main “warning-cry” concerns itself with the direction of the breed, which many breeders – many novices – still subscribe to, a direction that would lead us off the beaten path, far off of our breed goal; toward breed ruin.

In all my articles, lectures, and judges reports of the last few years, I have desperately tried to point out that we must cling to the breed standard of the working dog, and I gave reasons why we must do so – as it was once laid down, as a model of the breed’s design. I have emphasized over and over again that we should not get overly engrossed in details of outward characteristics, even if they are ever so attractive, when, for the breeding value of the dog, he must be based entirely and decisively upon the totality of hard constitution, good health, endurance, authentic working structure and stable temperament.

The vision, the understanding of this standard, is thus sometimes lost. Many young fanciers have unfortunately hardly ever seen correct conformation in respect to these dogs. They become intoxicated with appearance which so often has so little in common with the working dog as he is supposed to be. In this case, the only thing that helps is trusted faith in the system, until one’s pondering leads to eventual understanding. The belief in what is well meant – the thoughtful suggestions and guiding principles – are for the welfare of the breed’s future.

As with so many breeds, sport and fad breeding led to more severe evidence of natural traits, and therefore to bad breeding situations that had nothing more in common with working ability. This may seem nice to the faddist, however, for the true lover of Nature, who doesn’t engage in matters based on eye appeal, it appears as a strange caricature.

Over-sized, massiveness, height, racing ability, straight front or tucked up racing dog body would be for the shepherd an adverse perception leading to the death of the breed. And actually, some of our dogs and especially those who receive applause among the novices resemble the racing dog type in his over-sized, narrowness, tucked up appearance and effemination. The Borzoi, who hunts the wolf on the Russian prairies does not look like this; he is still a correct, rugged fellow. He who looks around at dog shows, pages through dog magazines, will find often enough that there are still a few other breed’s destinies which are threatened, that is, they are about to step out of their breed type because they are not bred upon a breed goal, but rather upon an imaginary “beauty concept”.

Another interesting quote

"The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs.
In contradistinction to working and utility breeding is "sport" breeding, which produces a temporary advance but is always followed by deterioration, for it is not done for the sake of the DOG, nor does it make him more useful, it is done for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser."
- Max von Stephanitz, the creator of the German Shepherd

Oh I don't know, we'll have to discuss payment terms I jest of course, we'll do it next time we meet up

I lol'd at this!!

Feel free

In the original German Shepherd studbook,' Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ)', within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.

So I can start slagging off Bulldogs, Lowchens etc etc etc with little to no indepth knowledge of the breeds ???

Why is everyone so very knowledgable about GSD & have such clear cut opinions that the" old fashioned "level backed"" dogs are the correct ones ?? But because I haven't actually owned a GSD for 4 years I know nothing ?

I might not have personally owned a GSD for 4 years, but I still have regular contact & involvement with the breed-very much close up & personal.

Having had an"Alsatian"that physically attacked one of my Cavaliers at a show where the same dog went BIS & being told my Cavalier(all 7 kilos of him)had frightened the"Alsatian"by looking at it & wagging his tail. I obviously should have no opinion about the"Alsatians"as they are correct to the UK breed standard & perfect in every way possible

OK from now on I will not comment on the GSD threads, but will on breeds I have little or no indepth knowledge of. This also means I won't be offering any opinion on Bearded Collies as I don't currently own one

FYI my father did own an "Alsatian"back in the 1950s & she was in bred on one of the Alsatianists most admired dogs CH Avon Prince of Alumvale(had him at least 11 times in her pedigree) She was very typical of an Alsatian & was PTS after attacking my brother unprovoked & leaving him needing hospital attention for his multiple bite wounds. He was only saved by my GSD(from imported german parents)who pinned her to the ground forcing her to release my brother