German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

I like the first four very much

The whole site is really interesting, loads of information re breed standard, correct conformation and the reason for it.

A lot of it goes over my head mind you!

I am going to have an in-depth look at this site later :-D Off out with the doglets now

Has anyone seen a Shiloh shepherd or a King shepherd in the flesh?? ...
at 30in plus at the shoulders they must look impressive size wise ...

No I haven't but from the pics bigger isn't always better

I would be extremely worried about what the upsize has done to the skeleton and joints. The original GSD was a medium sized dog. This breeding up in size can`t be good for the frame - or the agility.

The CP is only known as a Bohemian Shepherd in the US no where else yet until recently there had only been 1 cP in the US and 1 in Canada, recently within the last 12 months 2 other CPs have been exported there. The spelling in English is Chodsky Dog (Pes = Dog) in Germany Chodenhund, other countries Chodsky Pes.

Altdeutscher Huetehunde is a name for a group of breeds used in herding the one pictured is the Harzer Fuchs, some times they will interbreed them but will specify in adverts the cross.

Alt Deutsche Schaferhund keep their own registry and breed clubs they will use a dog from SV reg lines to bring in fresh blood but they are much sharper than the SV reg lines

Re the maskless dogs still some around in the UK they normaly are a mix of lines but with heavy English background

as for the Panda dont people think it is strange only in the US

again they cant spell the word Alsatian and insist on calling it 'Alsation' not sure why?

FWIW Zane is over 30" ats (measures 105cm atw). Maybe I've been lucky with him but he has no bone/skeletal defects. Maybe when he's older this will change but I have no reason to think he'll have any more problems than my other male GSD, Yiannis.

Jenzi on the other hand, fits perfectly into the East German working lines escription that I was told she most likely came from. But she has severe HD so I think the info on the site is very interesting but isn't it down to individual breeders rather than overall types/families of the GSD that problems arise?

Not just individual breeders sadly, but breed clubs whose "ideal"dog is Ch Tarquin of Dawnway

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and who are still breeding(without health testing)to his type

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THe issue of height is not necessarily to do with skeletal or bone defects but the inability of a dog of this size to do the job it was bred for!

Size is a fundamental issue re function in any breed including the GSD.

Thanks Pam. I think I must have missed this comment first time around. Having seen many poor examples of the GSD when coat is specifically bred for, I can only agree with him.

I've just come across this thread and find some of the misinformation here quite incredible.

The FACTs are quite different to what is being promoted by those people who are holding out that the 'Germanic' dog is somehow either 'healthier' or more 'correct' than the Alsatian type.

It is quite true that Alsatian and German Shepherd is the same name for the the one dog. Those of us that still use Alsatian will go on doing so because the conformation of the dog that we like is absolutely the conformation as specified, not only by the founder of the breed, but also by the UK breed standard.

The 'Germanic' type of dog owes its shape to the takeover in the 1970s/80s of the SV in Germany by the Martin Brothers who promoted each others dogs into the position of 'Sieger' for a number of years. It is a FACT (curiously ignored by those that support this shape) that because the better dogs in Germany after WWII were taken out of Germany that rebuilding the breed in Germany meant that there were massive numbers of outcrossings to other breeds. This, BTW, is all documented in the breed records in Germany.

It is also a FACT that the dogs taken to the UK and the US were far more like the breed standard as explicitly reshaped by the breed founder in 1925. (Search the net for pictures of Siegers - there are websites which show the Siegers - the 'best' dog in Germany - from the early 1900s onwards). It's easy to see that until the 1970s the conformation of the dog is an almost exact replica of the Alsatian e.g. the 'English' type. What is totally incorrect is the German (Martin) type.

To illustrate this have a look at this animation.



It shows the skeletal structure of the dog in 1925 changing into that of the 1990s. Here is the same animation applied to a horse.


Ask yourself, would you believe that someone could do that to an animal? And, as a matter of FACT, the start point of the skeletal animation is an exact copy of the skeleton that appeared on the Judges' cards in the DDR. It's not 'evolution' - it's abomination.

It has also been said that 'Wolf' was incorrect in that there was no wolf in the breed. Again this isn't true. The breed book shows, quite explicitly, that in the early days of the breed there were 4 outcrosses to wolves. It's also a FACT that the breed clubs that support the Germanic type are refusing, again and again, to address the problems with topline and hindquarters in the breed because they prefer the (totally wrong) fashion of roach back.

It's not just in the UK that there is dissatisfaction with the 'German' type of dog - it's happening on the continent and in the USA too. And, I know this is some time after the event, but it's my fervent hope that one day the breed will split - into the 'Original GSD' and the 'Modern GSD'.

But, you'll never hear the 'Germanic' supporters let facts get in the way of the money - and in Germany (and to an extent in the UK) there is very big money behind the 'Martin' shape GSD.

I've never seen that animation before. Such a change.

Oh yes, the epitome of perfection this is




Hmm, I know which one I think looks more fit for function




The pic on bottom left is the same dog as the stacked one on the right.

Hmmm so you prefer the dogs from the 1940s/1950s then

Is there any reason that 99% of "Alsatian" breeders do no health testing on their breeding dogs & also breed dogs that do not meet the UK breed standard on ratio of length to height(in the UK it is 10 :9(or 8.5) ?

A recent photograph of a typical Alsatian in one of the dog papers showed that the type being currently shown successfully by a leading Alsatianist is 11:7 quite an obvious fault & deviation from the UK breed standard.

An imported foreign champion(not from Europe)was bred from 11 times & has been tested under the OFA(US)rules, however I am unable to find his results on the OFA database. His offspring results are very good(only 9 scored out of 61 puppies)
The above dog in stance & on the move

99%?? where do you get these numbers? do you have any evidence that their dogs are less healthy?
What is the reason that dogs backsides have been heading closer and closer to the floor year on year?
Why have the changes shown in the animation taken place?

Not talking about health testing in these dogs, not talking about HD - but the physical fact that they look so differently than normal dogs and than the origonal GSD's in Germany, the UK or America up until at least the 70's and 80's when things started changing - why did that happen?

99% simples by checking the KC health tests again the dogs registered in the BRS each quarter

Why are you so irate about GSDs

I do not like any of the show GSDs of any type

The Alsatians are getting shorter in leg & longer in body-why don't you ask about that ?? Add to the mix the fact that the Alsatianists still think their dogs should have a "noted suspicion of strangers"something that was never in the original breed & was added to cover for the cr@p temperaments of the 1940s/1950s UK Alsatians. Their dogs temperaments can be seen at any of their shows

The shape of dogs change because people breed them for specific looks for the show ring.

The HGH GSDs have developed to do the job they were originally bred to do. They can patrol their areas better if they are higher at the wither than the croup, if they have a level topline in stance they fall on forehand in gait QED

That is really informative. thanks for posting. ( and welcome to the row!!! ) another one on our side! welcome to Dogsey.

You had me right up to that. I shall now tiptoe quietly away......

I don't like the old English type "Alsatians" any more than I like over exaggerated WG show type (however I do quite like the middle dog in the bottom line of WG dogs).

And WHY are they stacked like that in the modern show ring, when it was never the case before??

Having now owned four variations of the GSD, my future preference will always be for a working bred dog.