German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

It is heartbreaking to see a gsd like this.

Just one thing that really bugs me is the word alsation. The people of Alsace Lorraine(after whom the GSD was quite wrongly named) are Alsatians not Alsations.

The correct way to handler a GSD is to free stand them, as I did when I showed my dogs. Not with the choker up under the ears & dogs lifted leg by leg into the stand & then the fingers under the ears to keep them up. I don't like the stacked dogs of either type & in Germany I've not seen this done for many years.

Would be nice to see all the dogs stood free on loose dead linked collars, it would certainly make interesting viewing. I always insist on this when I judge, pity the Alsatianists who enter under me(thinking I'm a Collie judge)do not understand what a loose lead is nor what "I want to see your dogs free standing" means either, at least the"other"side try to do as they are instructed & I don't have to chase their dogs around the handler to go over them

Stunning

Well yes I am stunned at the photograph but not in the way you meant I think

Warro I posted the pics of the early gsds to show how far the germanic showline has come from its origins, and suggest that the illustrative pic on the KC breed standard is not dissimilar.

Yes pedigree dogs have changed enormously since their early days, and all breeds have evolved. But what the breed custodians must ask themselves is whether the breeds have evolved/or are evolving in the correct way. Is the evolution an improvement on the past. In the case of either the 'alsatian' or the germanic showline, I would say a categoric no.

I`ve seen this before. And i still think it`s very very silly and will do the breed no good at all.

The problem in the exaggeration arose as far as I know from after the war when the financial situation in Germany was dire, American`s wanted to buy German bred dogs but paid big money to have exagerrations bred in, and the financial climate led breeders in Germany to comply, leading to, [ imo ], the dreadful situation we see in Alsatians today, [ I grew up calling them Alsatians ;-) ].
So imo the standard regardless of where they are bred now should be for the pre-war straight backed and proportionally balanced dogs, the build for which they could work day after day and did`nt look or move like cripples.

Here here !

Considering the type was changed in their homeland to suit the American market causing the exaggerations to be bred in I think it`s time you let go of this `homeland is best` notion, how they were, [ pre war ], before that happened yes but from the moment the breeding was changed to cripple the dogs to suit a dreadful fashion idea, no, no matter where they are bred they should not look like badly drawn cartoons.

I have explained this to you before, perhaps I did`nt put it well enough : the activities register is nothing whatsoever to do with the breed register, the activities register is purely for the KC to make money out of people whose non-breed registered dogs compete in agility/flyball etc, the activities register is nothing to do with breeding.

Have a look at this, Its German V American (but English alsation isnt that far away from the American Type imo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRU8UdMnssU

Please don`t speak for people because of what they grew up calling the breed ! I grew up calling them, [ and owning ], Alsatian as have many people, get over the name thing please
The picture you claim is of the type `Alsatianists` prefer, well not me thank you, I hate the breeders who turn out the sloping type which look like their legs will buckle beneath them

That`s right, tar everyone with the same sweeping brush
Why do you think some breeders breed for the healthy straighter back and better leg conformation ? [ the type which should be in the show ring as good examples imo but are likely to be laughed out of it as happened with my lovely straight backed proportionally leg length Alsatian... ]. How on earth can you state as fact that not one of them health tests when the reason they breed for the un-exaggerated dogs is to produce dogs which are`nt cripples !
You really need to stop with the sweeping and incorrect generalisations like this, you don`t know every breeder nor what each of them does or does`nt do regarding health tests.
As is well known of me I don`t breed, however were I still an Alsatian owner and were I a breeder of them I would breed straight backed well proportioned lines and would health test to the hilt so that somewhat flies in the face of your generalisations and misconceptions of people who are against the breeding of the caricature dogs currently being wobbled around various show rings.
Some of the best I have seen pictured in the past were South African bred, I wish I could find the link to the ones in particular which I believe the standard should be set by for healthy conformation.

Right as I'm not allowed to put Patch on my ignore list I'm off this topic. I'll leave God's gift to the GSD world knowledge base, who cannot accept that German Shepherd is the correct name for the breed, to enlighten you all on the subject that she has more knowledge of than anyone else in the known universe.

I'm off to call my SV Breed Judge friend in Germany, to discuss why he bred his dogs for the USA market after WW II, something that will come as a big surprise to him.

And I would want one of these dogs.

Pot, kettle, black ;-)

Don`t you mean Deutsche Schaferhund

Again, so one breeder you know = everyone else was the same during post war financial recovery of a country ? You do like that big ol` tar brush ;-)
The info comes from sites giving history of the breed, some of it is touched upon here

http://www.nsgsdc.com/breedhistory.shtml

What I am trying to get across to you, [ and have tried in vain for a long time...], is to express that you seem to think you can speak for everyone on either side of the fence, that you put forward things as facts when they are not, unless you do personally know every single Alsatian [ or whatever name ], breeder in the world and can state which health tests each of them do or do not have done, and that you seem to believe you can state what others think about the breed when you just make assumptions and generalisations.
Views I put forward are my own, I don`t try to speak for others, and I do make clear that I have opinions on what I personally believe are right or wrong within the breed and what I would like to see to change things, that is very different to being the holder of all knowledge which is how you appear to wish to be seen, [ note I say how you `appear`, that does`nt mean I am claiming it as something you actually think or feel, it`s just the way you come across ]. As I have asked you many a time, please just stop the caustic rudeness toward anyone who see`s things differently to you, others are allowed to have opinions too, regardless of whether or not they fall into line with your perceptions of the dog world.

I do not feel there should be a split in the breed, but I do think the whole standard needs changed, far to much exaggeration in many dogs,

a nice happy medium is whats needed.

Patch, you are misunderstanding Dyane. The terms she uses are terms used by people CURRENTLY in the breed - breeders, exhibitors, working people, breed clubs and so on.

Alsatianists are generally accepted by both sides of the fence to be those who breed from English lines to the shape that has already been shown. This is why the GSD(alsatian) (proper breed name at present) fraternity is discussing whether to split between GSD and Alsatian.

Just for the record, to spell it out (as some people seem have difficulty understanding) German Shepherd dog is the direct English translation of Deutsche Schafterhund. Due to anti-German feeling during and after the war, this was changed in this country to Alsatian. As memories of the war faded this was changed by the kc to Alsatian (German Shepherd dog) then to German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) which is where we stand now.

People of both sides of the fence are voting for and against a split into GSD and Alsatian. Whether this comes to fruition remains to be seen.

When I say I prefer German Showlines, this does not mean I approve of over angulation, loose hocks etc. I, and I'm sure many others currently in the breed want a beautiful dog which is fit for purpose (though obviously my 2 are the most beautiful in the world lol).

I have to say that ALL dogs have 'faults' - the perfect GSD has not yet been born (though Timo is drop dead gorgeous imho).

No-one is saying people have no right to like 'Alsatians' (i.e English lines) but equally, fans of working and German lines have the right to like the dogs they like.

I have no truck with English lines, but I am happy to accept your right to admire them.

Dyane really does know what she's talking about Patch, I have seen many posts of hers (not just here) and I have learned lots from her (and many others, being a breed enthusiast). She does not deserve to be shouted down.

Paula

There seems to be a lot of missconceptions on this thread;
The first imports to the UK werent registered as a seperate breed but as Foriegn Sheepdogs. According to Joesph Schwabacher the Alsatian Wolf-dog Club was formed in August 1919, but according to Nem Elliot it was formed in 1918. The facts are: the club was officialy recognised by the KC on 6/8/19, I believe they actualy started to collect names of prospective members in Feb 1918, then on 17/4/19 a booklet with rules of the club and the breed standard was then sent to each prospective member with an invitation to join the club.
May 7th 1919 the KC recognised the name of the ''Alsatian Wolf-dog''
In 1919 there were 54 Alsatians registered, it was in 1919 that 'Alsatians' were given seperate breed status and taken off the Foreign Dog register. The first Champ shows were held in 1920 and the Alsatian League was formed in 1924 these two clubs merged and was then called the Alsatian League and Club of Gt. Britain later known as the German Shepherd Dog League of Great Britain.
Most of the early imports arrived from France, they called them Chien de Berger d'Alsace this is where the UK name was derived from 'Alsatian'(later it was changed to Chien de Berger Allemand).

The Alsatian is nothing like the original imports in bone thickness, size and weight, the original imports only weighed on average for a male 26kg at the most.

Re Epilepsy, the lines are predominately English the following dogs have produced known epileptics;
Asoka Cherusker, Archer of Brinton, Arch Duke of Rozavel, Allegro of Seacroft, Barry v Status Quo,Derby vd Schinklergrenz, Druidswood Consort, Eclipse of Evely, Ferdl & Ilk vd Eschbacker Klippen, Fant vd Wienarau, Fenton of Kentwood, Gorsefield Granit, Hendrawens Sagitarius, Hendrawens Syrious Norge, Joll v Bemholt, Kenmils Valiant, Lorenz of Charavigne, Ludwig of Charavigne, Lummel v Haus Goldschmeid, Nestor v Haus Musshafen, Orsof v BuseckerSchloss, Rengar Dambuster, Rothick Echo, Rozavel Rob Roy, Royvons Red Rum, Sparticist of Hendrawen, Tramellas Insbrook Jonty, Unisca Ricardo, Vikkas Tanfield Caro, Verus vd Ulmer. Astan Luke, Hendrawens Charade of Charavigne, Typhoon of Dawnway, Delridge Erhard, Conrad of Dukedene, Evelys Prince Charlie, Fuerstenkrone Condor, Lex of Glanford, Hendrawens Renaissance of Pipersmead, Bragi of Huesca, Lornaville Ambassador, Marlish Royal Charter, Ramacon Swashbuckler, Ramacon Philanderer, Renygar Desperado of Tramella, Vikkas Scipio av Hvitsand.
The Wienarau F litter was deregistered by the SV, to prevent further cases of Epilepsy.

Zamp; I have seen this dog many times in Germany he can move, the 'cherry picked' footage J Harrisons words not mine of the 4 dogs at a show were outt of 122dogs/bitchs, she filmed for 2yrs not many GSDs with loose hocks unsound movement is it in two years?

Reguarding health and I can comment on this as I have records of all GSD hip scores and elbow scores, only a couple of Alsatian type breeders hip score, you occaisnally get 1 elbow scored, normaly by the owner not the breeder. Then you have the Obedience lines that continualy breed from high and uneven scores, they will tell you the sire as a score of 9 when in reality it is a 2:7 and is known for producing high scores in all its litters. Then you get others who will breed from a bitch because it as a score of 10 which you think is great till you know the grdam as a score of 34, she as unscored dogs/bitchs in her line and at least 2 males known for throwing high hip scores. These are just 2 examples I can give you loads more.

I think it is time for a split, I do have 1 dog who you would term middle of the road he is Germanic except in his 7 gen as 2 English dogs. My 100% WG Highline dog can move when free standing no exaggeration, and can certainly bring down rabbits/hares/ducks etc. and as a 0:0 hip score how many Alsatian dogs get that these days?

Re American type they developed that way due to excessive inbreeding on Lance Fran Jo born in the 60's, likewise in the UK they were inbred on certain animals and you will quite often see 11+ lines going back to known Epilepsy producers, these lines also carry HC, OCD, HD we wont know about ED as they dont test.
Unless some one can give me proof that the Alsatians are Healthier, which from the evidence I have shows the opposite, I will stick to the Highlines.

And I am pointing out that anyone who calls them Alsatians are being tarred with the same brush simply for using that name.

And it`s silly, they are one breed, the problem is with the lack of adherence to breed standard - something which is being done to these dogs in all countries.

Thank you for the explanation but to spell it out I am well aware of it thank you, having grown up with and owned Alsatians myself going back over 30 years ago. The official breed title in this country uses both names, one being in brackets, I daresay that will continue until us fossils who grew up calling them Alsatian are all dead and buried

I hope it does`nt happen, breeders of the exaggerated dogs need to be reeled in and fast, not given licence to carry on and make them even worse which is what I believe a breed split would do :?

Personally I think the current trend show lines dogs should be banned from the ring and `normal` built pets put in there instead because so many show line dogs are just shocking imo

There are faults and there are faults - to breed dogs which look and move like cripples is not just faults, it`s obscene

This is what causes a split where there is none in terms of one breed, you are misunderstanding me regarding the name, I do not consider an Alsatian to be one countries lines and GSDs as another, they are still the same breed, some people simply grew up calling them one official breed name and others with the other official breed name, nothing more nothing less, you are reading far more into it than there is [ in my case anyway ] ;-)

Where did I say I admire them over any other ? I admire any within the breed which don`t look like they need a hoist to keep their bum off the floor and which could`nt be mistaken for a flea`s roller coaster ride because of back slope and bend no matter which lines they are from.

Within her perception ;-)

So have I - believe me this goes waaaay back

I also love the breed, I grew up with them, but I also grew up learning from different people and from living with dogs which could stand on their own four legs without being propped up or looking like they would buckle at any moment, [ actual working dogs as it happens, military protection dogs plus my own lad, dogs which could and did do their jobs day after day, year after year ]

When the acid tongue and belittling anyone who see`s anything differently stops I`m sure my responses would temper to suit. [ Not holding my breath though ]

Please get back onto the topic. Not the back biting everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge on this, excellent informative post.

Do you know if there is any trend to lessen the exaggerations in the highlines in Germany, eg less curved back, less hind angulation at all, or is the general position among highline breeders that there is no undue exaggeration in the highlines?

I think you will find the majority do not deliberately breeding for the extreme, my own dog who is to the extreme both sire and dam wasnt, the steepness of the croup and shortness of the back has come about by trying to compensate for some of the long weak backs from ealier years and the breeding for the phenotype of low hip scores. You will now find many new lines coming forward that do not have the same line breeding that has been prevelant since the Canto/Quanto/Marko/Mutz split. Some of the female lines now coming through prevelant sires go back before this split without the line breeding to Canto/Quanto. I know the SV are looking more closely at breeding practices, you will also find some WG line breeders outcrossing to European worklines. They are aware of some of the unsoundness re loose hocks and are trying to eradicate it, but this fault does not have any correlation to HD as some people with little or no knowledge of the breed try to infer.

I know when JH came onto another forum she tried to say the above, she also stated that someone had looked at the COI of dogs in the KC database and stated these were to high and too inbred but like I pointed out both my dogs do not have all their ancestors in the UK KC database. My own dogs have COI of 5.6% and 3.7% whereas some of the English ones are 8.6%, 9.8% etc.
When I get time tomorrow I will look for the article from the SV.
Pam