German Shepherd/Alsatian split? Discussions

Dyane, love that V2 rated dog (who is it?)

I have to say that I adore Zamp, having met him in the flesh, he does not look as exaggerated in real life as he does in that picture.

I am all in favour of a split between the German Shepherd Dog and the Alsatian. Let's face it, unless you make a HUGE mistake of which judge to enter under, they're shown seperately anyway.

In my opinion, the Alsatianists are breeding dogs which are too long in the body, too short in the leg, with saggy backs. I'm not daft enough to think that there are no constructional faults in the GSD either.

As to the pics of the early GSDs - haven't all breeds evolved? I'm sure most, if not all, pedigree dogs have changed enormously since their early days.

Sorry, posted at the same time, I've seen your post re the VA2 dogs name!

GSDMad, if Zamp was not fit for purpose I'm sure he would not have attained his SchIII nor become VA1.

BTW, I do like German showlines and I make no apology for it - and I assure you that the topline and angulation do not look the same when the dogs are standing 'square' as they do when they are in the show stance.

Double post !

it's on all my posts

Errrr Timo is a VA2(Vice Sieger) show dog. He is fit for purpose having passed all his working tests & the AD tests as well.

Could both your dogs do that ? or could they work cattle/sheep like this dog ? This dog works sheep daily so ergo must be fit for purpose & not a show line bred dog !!!

lol if your that bothered about me calling you by your name then you should of thought of that when choosing your screen name to be different to your real name.

so what is yor argument here DYANE?
because the question was whether the two should be seperated as breeds?
but if that were to happen then what decides who is which?
what about the middle of the road dogs?

Yes, i believe so, particularly my bitch, IF she were trained to that level, physically she could do the work and does go all day most days

Timo vom Berrekasten is the V2 male, he is super. I AM a Zamp fan, loved watching him at Crufts, tireless, effortless movement when let out, and at the end of it all say for photographs with a disabled lady in a wheelchair.

He is a family pet to boot & although I'm not one of his fans, he does have a super temperament & a character to die for.

shoot me down but i also thought the handler wasnt that good at crufts...

As good as any other I think, I dont think ring etiquette is on the top of GSD handlers lists. I will say though, on the end of 6ft leads, the dogs (all) had super temperaments.

Ok then your name is real is gsdmad then ? I just pointed out that Joedee certainly doesn't dislike any GSD unless they are the one that went BIS last Febraury at the Ch Sh @ Newark that tried to decapitate him & yes it was an Alsatian type which was wearing a muzzle thankfully !

The breed will not be split as such as their are breeders with a mix of both bloodlines behind their dogs. What will happen is what has already happened the two sides show under different judges.

The breeders who prefer the correct type(ie the dogs from the home land of the breed)want compulsory health testing, DNA profiling etc the Breed Council also want this, however the UK club is vehemently against any compulsory testing full stop & so the KC cannot bring it in as the UK club always objects. The KC cannot impose compulsory testing, unless like the Irish & Irish Red & White Setter clubs all the breed clubs sing from the same hymn sheet.

TBH I think the KC should make health testing compulsory full stop. Allow anyone who wants to breed to become a breeder mamber of the KC(& like the ISDS)sign an application which includes an agreement to have their dogs health tested before breeding from them. There should also be individual breed scores that are accepted for breeding stock(& I mean a detailed score not simply a total number) They should also have to agree to have all the dogs tested for fitness for purpose & also be surveyed against the breed standard & dogs that failed not be eligible for their progeny to be registered by the KC.

There would still be the Activities register, but again all dogs would require health testing before their offspring was eligible for registering, even if they were not KC registered.

I would even go further & require all dog owners have to be licensed(not the dogs & a one-off licence like the driving licence)& all dogs either chipped or tattooed or as in my case both & DNA profiled!

I would incorporate a compulsory health testing for any dog whether KC reg or not if it is to be bred from.

Now that would be my Utopia

lol just in the bis ring i didnt rate the handler but to be fair didnt see the breed classs...
no my name is not gsdmad but i dont mind being referred to as gsdmad...you obviously dont like 'alsations'....being an 'alsation' does not make the dog aggressive and you cannot say they have unsound temperaments...it is how they are brought up that counts! my bitch is what you call 'alsation' and is perfectly sound in temperament. and i agree with your thoughts on health testing

no...top of their list is position the dog in the most exaggerated way as possible

Really? Testament to the good joints and rigorous health testing and obvious good and flexible construction of these animals that they can be positioned in this manner! try doing it to an English bred, pigeon chested one!

yep cause this is stunning..http://www.vonlotta.com/images/gsdpic4.jpg

although an american dog it is still in the 'desired' show stance

That handler was the 14 year old daughter of the owner. OK she wasn't that great in the Group ring, but she was obviously used to a very different way of handling.

GSDMad, the dog in the picture you show does not conform to the breed standard, nor is it middle of the road as it is much more like the English Lines. In my opinion is just plain ugly. No offence meant, just my personal feeling.


Dyane, couldn't agree with you more re health testing. Perhaps Jemima Harrison should have actually bothered listening to RESPONSIBLE breeders.

Blimey - this thread has really kicked off since I went out with my dogs!

Great to see everyone's different opinions.

I still stand by my original thoughts, that breeders should be IMO striving to produce a healthy dog, with no exaggerations and who is capable of a day's work, as well as having a steady temperament.

Personally I love my longcoats, and have both an english obedience bred bitch and a german mostly showline dog. Neither of my dogs are exaggerated in any way, and that is just the way I like them.

Out of all the photos of the dogs posted, I prefer the working line dogs that Dyane posted. I am not keen on Zamp at all - he looked disabled on the TV footage shown of him, and I would weep if one of my dogs had movement like that. I am also not a fan of the *Alsatian* shown in the photos (or the US dog) - they are far too extreme for me, too heavy, long in the back with short legs.

This is what I thought...

If Jess looked like that, I would get her to the vet.

I hate that look. I don't mind a slightly curved back end (and I really do mean slightly) but to me, that just looks really unhealthy and unatural.

Well if those two dogs are showlines, then I take my hat off to their breeders. If all showlines looked like this, I would be in heaven, and I would have one too.

Warro, I have to disagree with you in relation to Zamp not looking as exaggerated in the flesh, I saw him at Crufts, and then again on the telly that evening, and to be honest, he looked just as exaggerated then. If Cox looked like that, I would be very distraught.

Alsatianists may be breeding the dogs to be too long in the back etc, and not health testing, but many germanic showline folks are also, in my opinion, distorting what was a beautiful breed, breeding banana backs, weak over angulated hind quarters and cow hocks, but at least they are health testing for the most part. In my view construction wise the alsatians and show line gsds in general are as bad as each other in different ways.

It always amazes me that handlers stack gsds in this way, either for the ring or for a photo, and then complain when others say the dogs look exaggerated.

I agree with your thoughts on health testing, I think that it is a disgrace that in this day and age with all the inherited conditions dogs in general are susceptible to breed appropriate health testing is not complusory for the registration of progeny.